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Lord Rogan: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and all noble Lords who have spoken to the amendment. I should like to test the opinion of the House.

6.38 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 18) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 119; Not-Contents, 179.

Division No. 3


Ampthill, L.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L. [Teller]
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eames, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elton, L.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jopling, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prentice, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Birmingham, Bp.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Serota, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stern, B.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wakefield, Bp.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Dartington, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

15 Nov 2000 : Column 331

6.48 p.m.

[Amendment No. 19 not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 20:

    Page 41, line 25, at end insert--

("( ) Part III of Schedule 1 and section 2(2) so far as relating thereto;").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, government Amendment No. 20 commences on Royal Assent the provisions enabling the appointment of the shadow policing board. Given that the process is under way, rather than make a separate commencement order shortly after Royal Assent, the Government think it sensible to alter the Bill in this way. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1 [The Northern Ireland Policing Board]:

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 21:

    Page 46, line 49, at end insert--

("(d) he has at any time been convicted of a scheduled offence under the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973, the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1978, the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991, the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996 or Part VII of the Terrorism Act 2000;
(e) he has at any time been convicted in Northern Ireland or elsewhere of any offence and has had passed on him a sentence of imprisonment (whether suspended or not);
(f) the political party of which he is a member is linked to any organisation which has failed to begin the decommissioning of arms and explosives in a manner verified by the Commission referred to in section 7 of the Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997;

15 Nov 2000 : Column 332

(g) he is not committed to non-violence and exclusively peaceful and democratic means; or
(h) the political party of which he is a member is linked to an organisation that has failed to satisfy any of the four factors set out in section 3(9)(a), (b), (c) and (d) of the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, before introducing the amendment, I crave the indulgence of the House. This is the last amendment at Third Reading save for remaining government amendments. As spokesman for the Opposition, and as an inhabitant of Northern Ireland, I should like to take this opportunity to thank noble Lords on all sides of the House for the way in which this "very Northern Ireland" debate has been conducted--for the passion, the patience, the intellect and the goodwill that has been generated almost all round the House. I should like to say a big thank you to all noble Lords.

In moving the amendment, I should like also to link it to Amendment No. 25. Once again, I return to practicalities and safeguards, and to reality. These two amendments seek to increase the disqualification conditions for membership of either the police board or the DPPs.

We have heard an enormous amount in these debates about policing in Northern Ireland. We have heard about the levels of crime and terrorism. A single police force has to cope with smuggling, terrorism from two different factions, a rapidly increasing drugs problem: it must cope with "baronies" and in-fighting between various gangs, to say nothing of in-fighting between paramilitaries. It is well recorded that the task of any Northern Ireland police force is really most daunting.

Members of the police force are doing a wonderful job. I know that all of us in this House wish them every success in achieving that aim in the future. However, their management is through the police board. At this stage in their life, and in the life of Northern Ireland, it seems to me that we should take every precaution reasonably possible, regardless of politics and of virtually everything, to ensure the integrity of the people who will carry out the management and the supervision of that police force.

Perhaps I may refer, first, to the board, which has a lot of power. It has to be closely integrated with the Chief Constable and his senior officers. Inevitably, it will be party to classified information of one sort or another. Someone on that board could have a serious police record. Equally, someone serving on it could have no serious police record, but because it is very hard to get convictions in Northern Ireland--indeed, it has been so for years--he or she could be known to be part of an east Belfast gang, sympathetic to it, a Godfather of it, or whatever.

Alternatively, that person could be part of a west Belfast gang, a Ballymena drugs racket, and so on. We all know that there are many such people running about loose in Ireland, especially in Northern Ireland, who, because of the paramilitary situation and various other matters, have not been brought to court and have not been convicted. We owe it to the new police force to make sure that every single

15 Nov 2000 : Column 333

precaution is put in place so that we ensure that there is no possible risk, be he or she political or apolitical, that a member of the board could be anything other than whiter than white.

I turn to Amendment No. 25, which relates to DPPs and addresses a similar argument. If they are to work properly, the DPPs will need to be much nearer the ground. We did not move the relevant amendment, but we should bear in mind the way that Belfast will be broken up. The four sections of Belfast really make little sense I suspect, when it comes, to policing--but I am not a professional policeman, so I cannot comment on that--and certainly to DPPs (or the subsidiary level of them). Again, those people will be very close to the policing process. It is highly possible that those people will be very close to the criminal elements in the west and east of Belfast. I should not differentiate, they will probably be close to criminal elements in all parts.

I do not believe that the Bill is strong enough at present to ensure that our new police force, which, after the Bill is passed, will become the police service of Northern Ireland, will be protected from having anyone who could be referred to as "a hood", "a criminal", "a crook", or whatever, on either a DPP or the board by dint of being an elected representative, or not, or being a political member. I think that I have made it pretty clear. Noble Lords have heard my arguments before. I beg to move.

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