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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton) moved Amendment No. 3:
- Page 1, line 15, at end insert (", or
The noble Lord said: My Lords, after the feast, we come to a small part of the menu. This group of amendments precludes Ministers, committee chairmen or deputy chairmen in the Irish Parliament who are also Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly from being political appointees to the police board.
This amendment has been tabled in response to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, in the Lords Committee stage of this Bill and a subsequent amendment which he presented for inclusion at the Report stage of the Police (Northern Ireland) Bill. Noble Lords will recall that my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer undertook to consider the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, in the context of the Disqualifications Bill rather than the police Bill. This amendment has no effect on independent applications or nominations to the police board by office holders in the Irish Parliament. I beg to move.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Rogan, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his response and the fact that he has taken heed of the valid case put forward by my noble friend.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead moved Amendment No. 3A:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 3A, I wish to speak also to Amendment No. 3B. We have been over this ground before. Therefore, given that there are other matters to attend to today, I do not intend to take up the time of the House.
The amendments have an important effect. They add to the positions within the Northern Ireland Assembly which cannot be held by a person who holds a "disqualifying office". In Committee the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, indicated that the position of the presiding officer is not subject to the potential conflict of interest to which other positions are subject because the presiding officer has no role in policy development or initiating policy. I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord was suggesting
The issue of deputy chairman and deputy chairman of committees raises its head again. On this issue we have been straightforward in asking if the holding of the position of a Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the position of a committee chair in the legislature of Ireland raises a potential conflict of interest. We would be grateful for any clarification that the noble and learned Lord can supply.
I wonder why it is that a Minister in the Government of Ireland holding a position of committee chair in Northern Ireland does not provide the same potential conflict of interest, because, on the face of it, there appears to be some contradiction. If it is conceded that a potential conflict of interest does exist, why has such a position been permitted to appear in the Bill?
All I am suggesting in these amendments is a very small measure of consistency on the three points I have mentioned, which is admittedly a small request in the context of what we all have to regard as a rather shoddy and undesirable piece of legislation. I beg to move.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this amendment is concerned with the position of Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer: They have not been added to the list of disqualifying offices because they are elected. Unlike Ministers in the Executive, the Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer are elected by the Assembly voting together. The Assembly may vote to replace the Presiding Officer at any time. Consequently, the Government do not believe it to be right or necessary to legislate to restrict the Assembly's discretion to elect the person whom they believe to be the most appropriate man or woman for the post.
The Bill has now been extended to preclude chairmen and chairmen of statutory committees in the Assembly from holding one of the disqualifying offices in the Irish Parliament. The Bill does not include the chairmen and deputy chairmen of ad hoc committees simply because they are neither appointed by the d'Hondt process nor do ad hoc committees carry out the same role in making policy and legislation as statutory committees. I can confirm the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, at the outset of his remarks that a role in policy initiation could give rise to the sorts of conflict that have been referred to before.
The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, also raised a question in regard to the Presiding Officer's position as head of the Assembly Commission: that is, if
The Assembly is also entitled to elect a new Presiding Officer at any time it wishes. This means that, should there be a change in the circumstances of the Presiding Officer, such as having been chosen to join the Irish Government, say, the Assembly itself would decide whether or not this constituted a clash of interests.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, in the light of the clarification provided by the noble and learned Lord, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 3B* not moved.]
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 4*:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 5 to 7 not moved.]
Lord Molyneaux of Killead moved Amendment No. 7A*:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, although this amendment covers what has already been referred to and that which has been spoken to on other occasions, I think there is a need for this to be looked at again and perhaps for some consideration to be given to the points in the amendment, but I will not make a long speech on this matter. However, I raise it if only to discern whether the noble and learned Lord has had some further thoughts on this subject. I beg to move.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, very briefly, this amendment seeks to make it impossible for a Back-Bench Member of the Irish Parliament to take up office in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I and my noble friend Lord Bassam have already explained the Government's view on this point a number of times. We do not believe that there is an automatic conflict of interest involved if an individual is a Minister in one
The quite reasonable and understandable amendments that the Government have so far made to the Bill have been consistently concerned with situations where there is no discretion in the selection of candidates for certain offices because of the use of d'Hondt. In all other cases the electorate, the legislature or the head of government has the discretion to select the most able individual concerned. The Government do not believe it is right to remove that discretion and I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, I was travelling hopefully, but I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
( ) be nominated under paragraph 7 of Schedule 1 to the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (members of the Northern Ireland Policing Board drawn from the Northern Ireland Assembly),").
Page 1, line 15, at end insert ("or
(d) stand for election as Presiding Officer or as Deputy Presiding Officer, or to be elected as such, or
(e) be nominated as a Chairman or Deputy Chairman of a statutory committee or ad hoc committee").
4.45 p.m.
Page 1, line 18, at end insert--
("( ) A person holding office as a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board in accordance with paragraph 7 of Schedule 1 to the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 ceases to hold that office on becoming the holder of a disqualifying office.").
Page 2, line 9, at end insert ("; or
( ) a member of the legislature of Ireland"").
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