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Lord Rennard: My Lords, I thank the Minister for closing what I think is a serious loophole in the legislation.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 10 [Limits on controlled expenditure]:
[Amendments Nos. 159 and 160 not moved.]
Schedule 11 [Control of donations to recognised third parties]:
Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 161 to 163:
- Page 175, line 48, leave out ("(2)(d)") and insert ("(1)(d)").
- Page 176, line 1, leave out ("(2)(e)") and insert ("(1)(e)").
- Page 178, line 12, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert--
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendments Nos. 164 to 165:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 166:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 167:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 94 [Returns as to controlled expenditure]:
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 168:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 99 [Referendums to which this Part applies]:
Lord Campbell of Alloway : My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn. We now reach the referendum part of the Bill, which is Part VII. This is the first amendment. I have been to see the Leader of the House to discuss the amendment. The noble Baroness agreed that it is a matter which is not of party political importance. It is concerned with constitutional matters. It is concerned with the body politic. She agreed with me that this should not in any circumstances be taken at this sort of hour in the House.
I happen to know--I shall not mention the noble Lord's name--that a distinguished Member of the Benches opposite would have been speaking on this issue. I happen to know that the issue had the support--I can say this--of my noble friend Lord Cranborne. I informed the Leader of the House that this was the position. It is no use the noble Lord, Lord Carter, shaking his head. I appeal to the noble Lord not to shake his head. I have never said anything in this House which was not true.
This was a perfectly clear discussion in amity across the political divide. Here we are now, at ten minutes to midnight, seeking to deal with a constitutional matter of great importance. We all know we are in the hands of our Front Benches, but the Back Benches are the backbone of this House. Some consideration should be given to us. Some consideration should be given to an understanding made between a very insignificant Back Bencher such as myself and the Leader of the House. I do not mind what my own Front Bench thinks. What I mind is that there should be some sort of orderly and civilised conduct of debate on a constitutional issue such as this. I do not know if anyone wishes to speak; I will not pre-empt them if they wish to do so.
Moved, That the House do now adjourn.--(Lord Campbell of Alloway.)
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, perhaps I may--
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, for intervening and I do not do so in any way to usurp the authority of the House to maintain order in your Lordships' House. I should point out that if an amendment is not to be moved and an amendment is not to be considered, the
Lord Carter: My Lords, I was shaking my head because it was news to me that the noble Lord had discussed this matter with the Leader of the House. That is why I was showing my surprise.
We are at something of a disadvantage. There was an agreement between the two Front Benches that we should reach a certain point tonight which, I think, is Amendment No. 174. That is a normal agreement. I see that the Opposition Chief Whip is agreeing with me. This is an agreement that we reach every night. If the noble Lord wished to press his Motion that the House be now adjourned, that would be unusual. It is almost unique for anyone other than the Government to move that the House be now adjourned. I can understand the noble Lord's feelings. This situation is news to all of us. I should like to suggest, because I know that the noble Lord always thinks of the House, that we have the debate on his amendment--it is an important one, but I am not sure of its terms--and hear the views of the Front Benches. If he wishes to return to it at Third Reading he is perfectly entitled to do so.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, if it is in order, I say to the noble Lord that he is quite right. I did not tell him. I had a discussion with the Leader of the House. Perhaps I was in error. It seems to me that the arrangement that was made was an arrangement made in honour and one which I would wish to be observed. Talking about honour, my own Front Bench did not tell me. I have been trying to find out all day what the agreement was and how far it was intended to go. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Carter, will accept that I have discovered that information from him only now, having sought it from my own Front Bench all day. This is not a very satisfactory position.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I know that the noble Lord will be aware that it is normally as the evening wears on that we reach an agreement about how far we may go. We can never tell how long a debate will last as the House is self-regulating. Certain groups of amendments may, surprisingly, take an hour instead of 15 minutes. We can never tell until late on in the evening how far we might go. There was a genuine agreement between us that we would go to Amendment No. 174. We are taking the time of the House. I am in the hands of the noble Lord, for whom I have respect. We have always discussed these matters with great amity. I think that the best thing to do is to discuss his amendment and hear the Front Bench views. Then, in the usual way, if the noble Lord wishes to come back at Third Reading, he is perfectly entitled to do so.
Lord Henley: My Lords, I rise with some diffidence to support the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip and to persuade my noble friend that what he is suggesting is not necessary on this occasion. As the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip suggested, we
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I am not at all sure that I will. It would have been very much appreciated if the courtesy of what had been agreed could have been passed on to me. No one let me know. It is a most unsatisfactory situation. But there comes a point of time when one has to stop protesting. I suppose that the only sensible thing to do, under great protest, is to move my amendment.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: But I protest that I have to do it.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I understand the noble Lord's feelings. He has behaved with his usual respect for the courtesies of the House. There has been a misunderstanding. It happens from time to time in the best conducted organisations. There was a genuine misunderstanding between us all. I suggest that we have the discussion now on this important amendment. I suspect that the noble Lord may wish to withdraw it and then return to the matter at a later stage.
("(2) For the purposes of this Schedule, any relevant donation received by a recognised third party which is an exempt trust donation shall be regarded as a relevant donation received by the recognised third party from a permissible donor.
(2A) But, for the purposes of this Schedule, any relevant donation received by a recognised third party from a trustee of any property (in his capacity as such) which is not--
(a) an exempt trust donation, or
(b) a relevant donation transmitted by the trustee to the recognised third party on behalf of beneficiaries under the trust who are--
(i) persons who at the time of its receipt by the recognised third party are permissible donors falling within section 52(2), or
(ii) the members of an unincorporated association which at that time is such a permissible donor,
shall be regarded as a relevant donation received by the recognised third party from a person who is not such a permissible donor.").
Page 178, line 27, leave out ("not less") and insert ("more").
Page 178, line 42, leave out ("not less") and insert ("more").
Page 179, line 41, leave out ("(2) to (10)").
Page 179, line 43, leave out ("not less") and insert ("more").
Page 71, line 4, leave out ("and") and insert ("or").
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