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Lord Cope of Berkeley: So far as concerns Amendment No. 17, can I take it from what the Minister said that the Government do not wish to catch people working for charities and so on, even if they are lowly paid or volunteers? The suggestion seemed to be that if they were paid they were covered. Sometimes people who undertake these duties get a small remuneration.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: If it helps the noble Lord, that is exactly the case. I completely concur with the extra elucidation given by the noble Lord and with his interpretation.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: I am grateful to the noble Lord. He also said that regulations could vary. I am not sure which regulations he had in mind.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: The point I was trying to make was that in the description of regulations we will be much more forthcoming in setting out how they might work and how the exemptions might work. There will be further clarification then.

6.15 p.m.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: We shall look forward to that. So far as concerns Amendment No. 18, I am not really persuaded by what the Minister said. He talked of marginally differing standards. The Bill provides subsequently for local authorities to have powers of licensing. Presumably that will lead to marginally different decisions being made by local authorities. So the Government are already providing for that on a permanent basis. Under the amendment there may be slightly different standards between magistrates'

30 Jan 2001 : Column 609

courts--although they are supposed to apply the same rules as the security authority--but, by definition, they will apply only temporarily, for not more than one month. I do not think the Minister has a powerful argument in these circumstances. A licensing system whereby a temporary licence can be granted by a magistrates' court--particularly in combination with an application for a licence to sell alcohol or for dancing and so on, as I described--could be extremely helpful.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: I can see the parallel and the comparison, but, of course, singing, dancing and entertainment licences are taken through the local authority process. It is our long-term intention to bring liquor licensing into the local authority orbit as well. The noble Lord's argument--certainly in the medium to longer term-- does not hold quite as much water as he would have us believe.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: It may be the intention of the noble Lord and his colleagues in government to bring licensing into the local authority's purview instead of the magistrates' court, but it is certainly not Parliament's intention--not yet, at any rate. I am not inclined to think that that is a good idea. But that is not an argument for today.

I do not share the view which seems to be taken by the Government that magistrates' courts are something basically to be got rid of--at least that the lay magistrates' courts are something to be got rid of. The Government seem to want to stick pins in them all the way round. However, that is a much larger argument. We should not involve ourselves too much with it today.

Magistrates' courts will be very good places to go for licences as long as they are responsible for alcohol licensing, dancing, entertainment and so on. If at some future stage the Government lay a Bill before the House to remove that power from magistrates and give it to local authorities in respect of alcohol sales and other matters, no doubt the power to license in this case would be removed at the same time. That would be logical.

But that is a different argument from the one that applies today. We have to proceed on the basis of the law as it is. And the law states that alcohol licensing and so on is carried out by the magistrates' courts. That is why it is a sensible arrangement to have the temporary licence provision arranged in the way I suggest.

From the nature of his reply, it seems to me that the Minister does not want to give this matter further consideration. I am encouraged by the support of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and the Liberal Democrats to seek the opinion of the Committee.

On Question, amendment negatived.

30 Jan 2001 : Column 610

Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 18:

    Page 4, line 47, at end insert--

("(6) A person may apply, on notice to the Security Industry Authority, to the magistrates' court having jurisdiction over the area affected by the designated activities, for an exemption from the requirements to apply for a licence and the Lord Chancellor may make an order as to the procedure to be followed on such an application, including on urgent applications; and the test to be applied by the court is the same as that which would have been applied had an application been made to the Security Industry Authority.
(7) A licence under subsection (6) shall not be granted for a period exceeding one month and shall not be renewable.").

The noble Lord said: I have spoken to the amendment. I beg to move.

6.19 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 18) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 88; Not-Contents, 98.

Division No. 1


Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Byford, B.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Chadlington, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haslam, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montrose, D.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plumb, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tordoff, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hayman, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Palmer, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

30 Jan 2001 : Column 611

6.29 p.m.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

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