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"HUNTING WITH DOGS: SUPERVISION
Schedule (Hunting with Dogs: Supervision) (which restricts certain statutory exceptions from offences to supervised hunting) shall have effect."

The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move this amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton. This is the amendment which would insert the self-regulation option put forward by the Countryside Alliance. My noble friend has described what it involves. We intend to say nothing more about it.

Viscount Astor: It may be helpful at this stage if I say something about independent supervision. No matter what Members of the Committee on my right say, there are a few questions which we have to consider and there are a few points which I would like to make.

The first point is that the organisation exists and works. Surprisingly, it has received no complaints since it has been in place. I do not believe that there are many other sports that could claim that credit. I make the point that it is an independent commission. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, is now clear about its independence. Although its members are involved in hunting, it is independent and only one member represents hunting.

There is a code of conduct which is clear about how hunts should behave. I remind the Committee that should independent supervision be selected by the Committee, that does not mean that licensing does not exist. Currently, there are at least three types of licences in existence of which I am aware. Hunts have licences with the Ministry of Defence, the National Trust and the Forestry Commission.

There is one question which we have to address; namely; does the commission have teeth? I believe that it does. Perhaps it could be improved. Speaking personally, there is a case for the Secretary of State having the power to appoint either two or three of the

26 Mar 2001 : Column 80

commissioners. That would give it enormously greater authority while maintaining its independence. It must be a preferential route to licensing. No other sports would be licensed in this way. Angling, falconry, and rambling are not licensed. It does not seem to make any sense. This provision would work and I believe that it has the support of your Lordships' House.

The Earl of Carnarvon: At Second Reading, very late at night, I said that when the Bill reached Committee stage I would move an amendment to option two. When the Bill is re-committed I would like your Lordships to know that I shall move an amendment to add to ISAH commissioners two commissioners appointed by the Home Office and one by the Welsh Assembly.

The Earl of Erroll: As regards ISAH having teeth, I know from experience sitting on another body, that insurance is the issue. I am fairly certain that if hunts had their permission withdrawn by ISAH they would no longer be insured in which case they would be unable to continue hunting. If one wants the dead weight of bureaucracy to kill hunting, I suspect that the middle way is the option to go for. One has only to look at the 21 pages of Amendment No. 6 to understand what that will involve. Alternatively, you can pass that on to ISAH.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: This has been an interesting debate. The arguments have been set out extremely thoroughly. The suggestion that has been made as regards the amendment is important and we shall obviously consider that. Those Members of the Committee who favour self-regulation should vote "Content" in this Division while those who oppose the self-regulation option should vote "Not-Content".

7.50 p.m.

*On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 249; Not-Contents, 108.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bagri, L.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Bath and Wells, Bp.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bristol, Bp.
Brookeborough, V.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butterworth, L.
Buxton of Alsa, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Carver, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dunn, B.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Fellowes, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Grabiner, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Habgood, L.
Hambro, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jauncey of Tullichettle, L.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Keith of Castleacre, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kimball, L. [Teller]
Kingsdown, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mallalieu, B. [Teller]
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Marshall of Knightsbridge, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nickson, L.
Noakes, B.
Nolan, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richardson of Duntisbourne, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tombs, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Weinstock, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Winston, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blease, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fookes, B.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller]
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laird, L.
Layard, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L. [Teller]
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Stern, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

*The Tellers for the Not-Contents recorded 108 votes. The Clerks recorded 107 names. Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

26 Mar 2001 : Column 83

8.3 p.m.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 3:


    Leave out Clause 1 and insert the following new clause--


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