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Schedule (Hunting with Dogs: Regulation) (which provides for the regulation of hunting with dogs in certain circumstances) shall have effect."

The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, which stands in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton. The amendment would insert into the Bill the Middle Way Group scheme for statutory regulation. Again, the noble Lord described it in his opening speech. I do not intend to add anything.

Viscount Astor: The Committee has voted by an overwhelming majority against the ban on hunting and by a large majority for supervision. I respectfully suggest that noble Lords vote Not-Content to statutory licensing.

Lord Vinson: Perhaps I may be the "odd Lord out". With my background and my practice, I have believed all my life in self regulation. In the past, whether as regards Lloyd's or elsewhere, I have believed that it has been better for people who understand the matter to regulate themselves. However, we have to be realistic. The general public are not so sold on hunting as are Members of this Chamber. Many members of the public will look for a middle way, a compromise. This House should send them a compromise--the middle way. We should accept that we would rather have regulated hunting than no hunting. That is my view. That is why I shall vote for the amendment. I may be the only person in the Whole House to do so, but I believe that that would send the right signal to the House of Commons. We may propose but they will dispose. We should recognise that and help the goodwill generated there and with the wider public by voting for the middle way.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I am concerned at the advice given from the Conservative Front Bench. I belong to a party in which many Members are hotly opposed to hunting in any form. I believe that members of my

26 Mar 2001 : Column 84

party in the country, who believe in individual liberties and freedom, will see the middle way option as a compromise which keeps the public involved in the issue of hunting but is more satisfactory because it has the imprint of Parliament upon it. I respectfully urge noble Lords to vote for that middle way option.

The Earl of Onslow: As a fanatical fox hunter, my bones have been broken; I have lain in the mud; I have jumped ditches. I understand why some people do not like hunting. What the noble Earl, Lord Carnarvon, said earlier was right. We should take the noble Earl's suggestion on statutory regulation: that we split the compromise between those who want ISAH and those who want 20 pages of statutory regulation. If we make ISAH statutory under regulation we have the right balance. I shall vote for Amendment No. 3.

Lord Graham of Edmonton: I state again a position I have declared previously. One is either for fox hunting and chasing wild mammals or one is against it. It has been stated more than once in the debate today that there is a middle way, a compromise. I call it a cop-out. There is no compromise about what I abhor in fox hunting. A number of references have been made to the people out there--the public. I know the people in my area. I celebrate my birthday today

Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Lord Graham of Edmonton: Sixty years ago I joined the Labour Party. When I reflect on where I should look for guidance or comfort I look to the Labour Party and the Labour movement. I look in particular to my friends on this side of the Chamber. It is a free vote. I respect whatever they do. However, I remind them that in another place our comrades voted 383 for a ban, with 13 voting for the middle way. Although it is said that we are entitled to our view, we must remember this. Of those Members who voted, 75 represent rural constituencies. Whenever the election will be, they will have not have taken part in an academic exercise: they stand up to be counted. They had the courage to do that.

Some of my friends believe that there is a genuine compromise or middle way. I do not believe that there is. The manner in which dogs hunt to the death remains. One can license a man; one can license an organisation. But when those dogs are let loose to hunt, one cannot control the instincts of the dog. That is why I believe that the middle way is not a compromise; it is a cop-out. Whether or not my friends vote for a ban, I urge them not to be fooled. If they lend their strength to this issue, it will be a sad and sorry day not only for themselves but for elements of the Labour Movement. We have all had letters. I have posted 52 replies today, many of them to individuals who had urged me to oppose the ban. I treated them with respect. I also had letters from Labour and trade union organisations. If my friends want some guidance beside their conscience on what the Labour movement wants, I can tell them that it does not want anything to do with the second or third options.

26 Mar 2001 : Column 85

The decision is on whether to lend our support to an option that would allow the continuation of hunting. I urge my noble friends to vote against it.

Lord Hooson: I have one thing in common with the noble Lord, Lord Graham--we both celebrate our birthday today. However, I totally disagree with what he has said. Those who want to increase the divide between the countryside and the urban population should follow his advice.

Lord Mackie of Benshie: I shall put a simple political point to those who do not want this countryside sport banned. The Government have offered a compromise. If we reject the third option in favour of self-regulation, they can move as they wish. Those who want to preserve the opportunity for people to hunt without cruelty should vote for the amendment in large numbers to correct the harm that was done by the previous vote.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I suggest that we move to the vote without further delay. I remind noble Lords that the vote is on whether to insert the Middle Way Group's statutory regulation option into the Bill and to remove the self-regulation option. Those who favour a statutory licensing regime for hunting--the middle way option--should vote Content, while those who are opposed to the licensing option should vote Not-Content.

8.12 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?

*Their Lordships divided: Contents, 122; Not-Contents, 202.

Division No. 3


Acton, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V. [Teller]
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bath and Wells, Bp.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Biffen, L.
Bledisloe, V. [Teller]
Boothroyd, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridges, L.
Bristol, Bp.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Buxton of Alsa, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carter, L.
Carver, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Donoughue, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Guildford, Bp.
Habgood, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Hayman, B.
Hereford, Bp.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jellicoe, E.
Kingsdown, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lloyd-Webber, L.
Lucas, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Monson, L.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nickson, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Orme, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Stern, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Vinson, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Weatherill, L.
Weidenfeld, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.


Ackner, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bagri, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bell, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brookeborough, V.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dunn, B.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gibson, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller]
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hambro, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Henley, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Keith of Castleacre, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Luke, L.
McCarthy, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
McNally, L. [Teller]
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Nolan, L.
Northbrook, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Richardson of Duntisbourne, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Sharman, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Slim, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Warnock, B.
Weinstock, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.
Young of Old Scone, B.

[*The Tellers for the Not-Contents reported 202 votes. The Clerks recorded 203 names.] Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

26 Mar 2001 : Column 87

8.29 p.m.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

26 Mar 2001 : Column 88

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