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Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, we on these Benches agree with the proposals tabled by the Select Committee on House of Lords' Offices. Though not perfect, they represent an improvement and should therefore be supported.

The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I am grateful for the two previous interventions. I think I spoke for one minute, and 51 minutes are now shown on the clock. I understand the feelings of the House but I am glad that, for once, the Chairman of Committees has not been totally hung out to dry, as used to happen when other members of the Offices Committee did not come to his aid.

I shall deal with some of the points that have been made. The major one, of course, concerns the Lord Chancellor's occupation of extra room. The whole of the Lord Chancellor's argument was based on the fact that he is the Speaker of this House. I note from the Companion that it is the duty of the Lord Chancellor ordinarily to attend the Lords House of Parliament as Speaker. Because he has to be here every day, he needs to have his private office nearby. I hasten to say that not the whole of the Lord Chancellor's Department will be moving here. At least that is what he told the Offices Committee and what the committee accepted. At present his private office is extremely cramped, in conditions that probably fall outside the provisions of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act, which, although they do not technically apply here, we try to

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enforce. That was the basis on which the Offices Committee accepted the argument, combined with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that people being dispossessed would be found accommodation that was at least as good; and I believe it is better.

If the noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, has not yet been told where he is to go, I suggest that he has a word with his Chief Whip. It was left to the Chief Whips to sort out the disposition of these offices, and I understand that they have done so.

The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, accused us of complacency. I hope we have not been complacent. This matter was taken very seriously by the Offices Committee and was the subject of lengthy argument. The accommodation group, consisting mainly of Chief Whips and a couple of other people, also considered it in some detail. The truth is that we are dealing with an antiquated building which is not fit for the uses to which it needs to be put in the 21st century. I have some sympathy with those who say that we should have new buildings outside. Indeed, we are in the process of trying to bid for a block within the area of the Palace of Westminster, which, if obtained, would ease the problem even further. However, the results of the survey suggest that not many people want to move even across the road, let alone round the corner. Although I understand that, the fact is that we cannot in this building do all the things that we would like to do.

The question of the Computer Office and the Committee Office, which I, as Chairman of the European Union Select Committee, resisted, but which nevertheless was agreed by the Offices Committee at that time, was part of an earlier decision put to the House last year. That was done on the basis that the usual channels felt that such space as could be made available here should be made available to Peers and that the committee structure should be moved across the road.

The noble Lord, Lord Marsh, said that accommodation should not be made available at public expense for more and more Ministers. It is quite clear that the Offices Committee very much regarded this as a one off. I know that no Offices Committee can bind its successors, but it was made very plain that this provision could not possibly extend to other departments of state, because they are not in the position of the Lord Chancellor as Speaker of this House.

The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, suggested that we should wait for the results of the meeting of the Leaders and Chief Whips. That has probably been answered. Decisions having been made and rooms having been allocated, to stop the process now would leave us in chaos when we return in the autumn. Let us proceed with people in their new offices and accommodation and consider on our return how we have progressed.

I turn to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert. It is quite right that the questionnaire did not have a question about secretarial staff. That was

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because we felt that it would better to organise the office accommodation for Peers before we moved on to the question of secretarial staff. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, will argue that if you do not know what people want, you cannot begin to work at it. However, I understood him also to say that people working in various parts of London need secretarial staff not only to carry out their parliamentary duties but also their business activities. The authorities in this place could not possibly allow taxpayers' money to be used for the provision of secretarial space for people operating in anything other than a parliamentary sense.

The noble Lord referred to the report of the four wise men. The noble Lord's chronology is not quite right. The report was produced at the start of the New Year, not before Christmas. It was shown to the late Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish shortly before he died. In the interregnum between his death and my taking over as Chairman of Committees, it was passed through the usual channels. I had hoped to get together with them to see how it could be progressed. I have not yet been successful. We hoped to have a meeting this week, but it has been necessary to postpone it until the first week after the Recess. I want to take that process forward, because that report still contains some unanswered questions.

I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, said about the awful state of the Offices Committee. It simply does not work and the mechanics cannot possibly work. That is one of the matters we need to consider. I hope to be able to continue this work, but there is no reason as far as I am concerned--I do not hold the report, it is not my property--why it should not be made available to Members of the House. I understand from the Leader of the House that he has absolutely no objection to it being made public. We will therefore circulate it.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I should like to ask a simple question. After all that has been said this afternoon, is the noble Lord moving in the direction of suggesting that we should accept the report as it stands? I would be very much against that.

The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I have no other alternative than to do that, because many proposals are in train that need to be put into effect, such as the provision of offices, the provision of stamped envelopes and perhaps the sand going to the Royal Gallery. I do not believe that by rejecting the report we shall take ourselves further forward between now and the autumn. Members who are expecting to move into new offices will find themselves in considerable difficulties and I hope that the House will accept the report.

We in this House have a problem in that we delegate issues to a variety of committees, imperfect as they are. Our first task should be to improve those committees in order to ensure that they are more responsive and managerially efficient. Until we reach that stage, we must allow for the fact that a number of Members

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from all sides of the House will have taken part in discussions on these issues and for the House constantly to refer them back is no way to make efficient progress. However, I understand why people become cross about such matters.

The noble Baroness, Lady Knight, suggested that we should find another mechanism in the interregnum. Frankly, I do not believe that that is possible. It is only two months and we have to start at some time. We have been working for many years without the facility of franked envelopes but I am sure that when it is in place it will be well used. It is easy for people who live in London to pop into the House in order to post letters here and it may be more difficult for those who live outside. But nothing has changed. The daily allowance has been improved so there ought to be a little money available for buying stamps during the Recess. At the end of the Recess, the facility will be up and running.

We have received a request from the Law Lords for rooms 23, 24 and 25. The Offices Committee agreed that only room 24, which is at present occupied by staff, should be handed over to them. The question of whether we should have a supreme court and whether it should be in a separate building is not a matter for me--I believe that it would call for an Act of Parliament--but it is interesting that the noble and learned Lords in the Appellate Court are beginning to consider such issues. I welcome that but believe that a decision is some way down the track.

I have not seen the 1864 report on ventilation. I am sure that it is filed away somewhere and I have no doubt that if Members want me to circulate it, ways can be found of doing so.

The Pugin Room was handed over to the House of Commons in 1906 and we have been struggling to get it back ever since. The noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, is taking steps to find additional refreshment accommodation. Many of us have always believed that the Pugin Room should be a joint room so that we can allow Members of another place to buy drinks for us!

I hope that I have covered most of the points but if I have not no doubt someone will tell me.

4.30 p.m.

Lord Peston: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask him a factual question. During the past hour, has he heard a single speech in favour of the report? I heard many noble Lords speak against it and I heard their arguments undermined by the two Opposition Front Benches. I find it strange, to put it mildly, that in these circumstances, and following the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, he would still want to proceed.

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