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Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I suggest that those who have mildly mocked the European Union's handling of the case of Austria have made a powerful case for these new treaty provisions. It is precisely because the European Union tried to make policy on the wing, and was not particularly successful, that its member states have collectively—all 15 governments, including the Government of Austria, have signed this treaty—decided that it was more sensible to try to codify such practices and to avoid the need to make policy on the wing in the future.
My second point is that they clearly decided—I believe that they were right to decide—that it was better to act in a deterrent manner than to be forced to take the stronger action laid down. Hence the talk and hence the possibility to issue recommendations that have no binding legal effect, but which would be a shot across the bows in a situation that appeared to deny certain basic principles of the European Union.
The third point, which in my view establishes the case for these provisions, is that at the moment the European Union is negotiating with 12 countries which want to join and a thirteenth country—Turkey—which is a candidate but which has not yet opened negotiations. In all those negotiations the European Union quite rightly is observing the Copenhagen criteria, which are precisely the criteria that are described in this provision: an absolute requirement, first, for opening negotiations and, subsequently, for joining the European Union.
Surely it is right that we should be prepared to apply the same criteria to ourselves as we apply to the new candidates. Surely it is right also for the European Union not only to bind the candidates during the period before they join the European Union but to bind all of us to observance of those standards within the European Union.
That is the purpose of the provisions and I believe that it is perfectly sensible. Given that, so far as I hear from the debate, not a single person has challenged the basic principles or suggested that they are not those which ought to underlie the EU, I do not see that there is a good case for suggesting that these treaty provisions are a mistake. I therefore believe that the amendment does not stand up.
5 p.m.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I rise briefly to support the amendments and to touch on a couple of the generalities that have been mentioned. In fact, one matter has not been touched on, so I shall do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, in his disagreement with my noble friend's amendments said that he thought they were not just Eurosceptic but were bordering on the Europhobic. I do not know whether I have previously crossed this sword with the noble Lord, but I have certainly crossed it with his colleagues on those Front and Back Benches. The point is that I hope we shall be careful in using the word "Europhobic".
As I have had occasion to mention previously, the word "Europe" seems to have been appropriated by the Europhiles in this great debate to mean both the continent of different nations and the emerging EU megastate. We Eurorealists or Eurosceptics, which is as far as we would go, love the Europe of different nations. We love and respect their cultures and their histories and pretty well everything about them. However, we dislike the emerging European megastate. We dislike the Treaties of Rome and pretty well everything that comes out of Brussels.
Our problem is that if a Eurorealist is rude about "Europe", referring to a product of the Treaty of Brussels, he is easily cast as Europhobic, or a little Englander, or a dangerous nationalist. Therefore, I must put that point to Members of the Committee and ask them not to use the word "Europhobic" or any of the other derogatory descriptions which I fancy the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and his colleagues might be thinking of applying to, shall we say, myself. I hope that they will not use that word in these debates unless
it is clear what some of us are phobic about; and that is, Brussels and the treaties; not the glorious nations and cultures of Europe.I want to make one other generality. I am sorry that I was unable to be present at Second Reading—I was on business in the Far East—because in reading the debate I did not notice many noble Lords declaring an interest in the matter. Nowadays, with a new register on the way, we are all supposed increasingly to be declaring our interests. I am aware that among your Lordships there are several former European Union Commissioners, MEPs and so forth. Others have been associated with our glorious foreign service and the general progress of the European saga to where we stand today. I believe that in one way or another some noble Lords may even be in receipt of the occasional pension from the European Union. I hope that when noble Lords intervene, perhaps as forcefully—
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: If we are to have a disarming agreement, I shall promise not to say "Europhobic" if other noble Lords will promise not to make references to Commission officials who are pensioned off and who have a right to intervene, such as have been made on many previous occasions. If we could have fewer attacks on the dreadful Commission, I promise not to use the word "Europhobic".
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I am not sure that only former Commissioners are involved because I was making the point that MEPs and people generally who have been associated with the grand strategy should declare their interest. It helps us to understand their background and where they are coming from in a debate. Of course I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that if there is a pecuniary interest it should be declared by those noble Lords concerned.
That is all I want to say about the amendment. It deals with generalities and I support it. The business of ostracising countries because there is a belief that there is a risk of something happening is dangerous and unacceptable.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: As the noble Lord, Lord Howell, made some preliminary remarks, perhaps I may do likewise and make a couple of general points. I welcome the statement that the noble Lord made at Second Reading. He pointed out that,
- "The Bill was approved with the usual very large majority on Third Reading in another place. It is not our custom or job to oppose it on Second Reading. It is, however, our job to seek to scrutinise, to seek to amend and to improve it as best we can . . . That is what we seek to do".
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, also told the House at Second Reading that,
- "there is nothing whatever that is anti-European in the constructive but undeniably quizzical approach that we take".—[Official Report, 1/11/01; col. 1523.]
Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, that trying to censor other noble Lords' language during our deliberations on the Bill is unrealistic. If we were all to make a list of the pejorative descriptions of each other's positions, we would be here a very long time indeed.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I was not trying to censor what noble Lords are trying to say; I was merely trying to define what I hope they mean.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: In doing so, inevitably the noble Lord will excite other noble Lords to define what they think he means by some of the terms he uses. I suggest that that is not a tremendously fruitful path for us to tread.
In addressing Amendments Nos. 1 to 6, Members of the Committee may want to reflect on the fact that the European Union is founded on certain principles. We have rightly come to expect the highest standards in respect of human rights in European Union member states. If the EU is to continue to provide a model of stability, we must ensure that others continue to have faith in our commitment to individual freedoms and to fundamental rights.
The ability to suspend voting and other rights of member states which do not live up to those expectations already exists in the Treaty of Amsterdam, which passed through your Lordships' House some couple of years ago. Nice does not change those procedures for action against any member state which has persistently breached human rights. The Treaty of Nice seeks to introduce a new early warning system. It is not a speculative weapon in the sense in which the noble Lord, Lord Howell, characterised it; it is an early warning system, which we believe would be enormously helpful.
Perhaps I may try to explain a little more about why we believe that such a mechanism is desirable. It must surely make sense that the Council is able to investigate the possibility of serious infringements of human rights before they are committed the better to prevent them and not just to act after freedom has been violated. In that respect I do not believe that there is any difference in what is being said here and what my noble friend Lady Scotland of Asthal said, to which the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, referred.
The Treaty of Nice provides that this risk can be established by the Council acting with a four-fifths majority of its members. That may lead to
recommendations being made to the member state concerned. The four-fifths provision is itself insurance against arbitrariness. Furthermore, prior to its decision the Council can ask for a report from independent experts, who must listen to the views of the member state concerned. There has been a great deal said on these provisions and this particular article. It has been claimed that it might be used to suspend the voting rights of those who do not share a federalist vision. That is not so. Others have claimed that it would be used to intervene in British politics or daily life. Again, that is not so, because the article relates solely to breaches of fundamental human rights. It may only be used in that context. It says so in the treaty and the treaty is law. A four-fifths majority must be attained to establish a risk of a breach of human rights. To eatablish that a breach has taken place the unanimity of all member states, except the government of the member state in question, is still required. So the Government believe very strongly that breaches of human rights cannot be tolerated in the EU and this clause gives the strongest possible message to existing states, applicant member states and the outside world that we really mean what we say. That is why the Government support it. Perhaps I may pick up on a couple of the points made. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, that it is desirable that we clarify treaties. That is a point on which the noble Lord and I can agree. I point out to the Committee that this is one of the elements which will be taken up in the IGC in 2004. The simplifying of treaties inter alia is one of the issues that the Government agree should be looked at. We believe it to be an important point for the future. I am grateful for the excerpts which the noble Lord was kind enough to read to the House. I point out to him that the government of this country are also elected: rather more importantly, they are elected by the people of this country. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, was worried about interpretation. I hope that he will be comforted by the knowledge that that is a matter for the European Court of Justice and not for the Commission and the Commissioners. Therefore, I believe that a number of the points that he made about them, interesting though they were, are not strictly relevant to this issue. Of course, there are different ratification procedures in a number of different countries, which vary from treaty to treaty. In this particular case the noble Lord is quite right. All countries must go through the process and all must ratify. If Ireland does not do so the treaty will not come into force. It really is as simple as that. The noble Lord, Lord Renton, asked who had ratified. Denmark, France, Portugal and Luxembourg have already ratified. All the other countries except Ireland are, as we are, in the middle of parliamentary consideration. I reiterate—5.15 p.m.
Lord Renton: It is very good of the noble Baroness
to give way. The point that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, made is a well established and fundamental one. The reason for it is this. If only a minority of the signatories to a treaty can persuade their parliaments to endorse it, the treaty must fall. If one, two, three or four countries fail to ratify out of 12 there is equally a very difficult situation because it is often the case that, unless the terms of a treaty are applicable throughout the group of countries which sign it, it will not be effective. I believe that that is true of the Treaty of Nice. If that treaty was not generally accepted within the European Community it would cause great difficulty and embarrassment.
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