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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I believe the question as regards the Treaty of Nice is a simple one. All countries must ratify it before it can come into force. It is not a question of only a minority or just one: if any single country fails to ratify, the treaty does not come into force. Other treaties require a different number of signatories for them to come into force. But everybody must ratify the Treaty of Nice or else it does not come into force.
I hesitate to cap the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick. With his usual staggering clarity of mind he came right to the point regarding these amendments. The fact is that the Council may address the recommendations of four-fifths of the member countries as regards the state involved. That is at the stage of a clear risk of a breach. Four-fifths have to agree that there is a clear risk. They can take expert advice and they have to go to the country concerned to ask for its views. But the rights of the state under threat cannot be suspended. That can only be done by the existence of an actual breach.
Those Members of the Committee who are afraid that there is a loss of rights because four-fifths believe that there may be are not correct in that assumption. The actual breach has to be established. The measures take by other EU member states as regards Austria were taken outside the treaty and the noble Lord, Hannay of Chiswick, was quite right in saying that that did not result in a happly position. It is very much to be hoped that the provisions in this treaty will obviate that kind of eventuality.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said. There are two points on which I would like clarification. First, are we now to understand that this new provision has been written into the treaty because of the situation into which the EU got itself over Austria? Is it now admitting that the situation was badly handled and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, intimated, this new provision is to prevent that from happening again? The noble Lord shakes his head, but I would like to hear the ministerial reply because it appears that that is what is being said. I would like clarification.
The other point is a serious one. It has been raised not only by Denmark but by other small countries as well. What happens if one of the "big four" is thought likely to breach these principles? What will happen about them? We need an answer to that because the
indications so far from the Berlusconi affair are that big countries can get away with it but small countries cannot. I am sure that the noble Baroness will understand the seriousness of these questions.I also thank the Minister for enlightening me about measures to be taken—I hope that they will be good ones—to ensure that in future the treaties can be understood not only by us, although that is seldom the case, but the population as a whole.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: First, this step is not being taken as a direct result of what happened in relation to Austria. This is a warning mechanism which member states believe will be a very useful addition to the available tools relating to human rights. The mechanism is designed to be helpful to a country that may be thought to be in breach of human rights. It allows for such a country to be approached and to state why it does not believe that it would be in breach of human rights. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that the example of Austria might not have happened had such a mechanism been in place. Irrespective of that, this is a useful mechanism which deserves to be supported in its own right.
My noble friend referred to the observations of a Danish parliamentarian about what would happen if one of the bigger member states of the European Union was in breach. A bigger country would be in exactly the same position as a smaller one. If it happened to be the United Kingdom—which under this Government would be very unlikely—four-fifths of our partners would be able to approach us and take expert advice. We would be able to defend whatever had given rise to the concern. There is no difference between large and small countries.
Lord Howell of Guildford: I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness for clarifying a number of important issues. I was a little disappointed by her prediction that some of the future amendments would wreck the Bill or prevent enlargement. I do not believe that that is so. We shall be able to produce convincing reasons why that is incorrect, but that is for debates to come.
I do not want to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, about my views on constitutions, single consolidated treaties for Europe, and so on. If I gave the impression that I thought that that was a good idea I was wrong. I hoped I had indicated that while a good number of people were attempting that Augean task I was convinced that it would fail. It is an attempt to impose a fixed order of things and competences on a highly fluid and ever-changing situation. Before the ink dries it will have to be amended yet again, so I believe that that is a failed mission from the start.
My noble friend Lord Biffen talked of the real difficulty involved in employing narrow precision when dealing with laws under the treaties of the European Union. Therein lies the heart of the problem. These laws are binding, yet in some of the excellent consolidating volumes about the treaties and perspectives with which we have been supplied it is pointed out again and again that,
- "the wording of these laws is more general and looser than the precision of English statutes".
As to breaches of human rights, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made clear in his intervention, the intention may be worthy and the cause good but vagueness is the enemy. In some senses the United Kingdom may be about to breach what some may call human rights—matters to do with detention without open trial—in the perfectly proper interests of national security. I only hope that the UK does not get into trouble with the European Union—certainly, the Government will encounter it from other quarters—in respect of that matter and the definitions of human rights which nowadays are as long as a piece of string. Those concerns remain in our minds. However, in view of the clear explanations that the Minister has given and the need to move on to other amendments, I do not intend to press the amendment.
Lord Bruce of Donington: Before the noble Lord sits down, can he give the Committee an indication as to whether he concurs with the extremely terse observation of the leader of the Liberal Democrats that the treaties are largely unintelligible?
Lord Howell of Guildford: I did say as much in my opening remarks. Like other noble Lords, I had enormous difficulty working out with which of the two running treaties, the TEU and TEC, we were dealing. Prompted by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and in the cause of education, at the beginning of each future debate I intend to indicate what I believe to be the treaty elements on which we are focusing and seeking to amend.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Before the noble Lord sits down, he indicated that he was perfectly satisfied with the reply of the Minister and would withdraw the amendment. Will the noble Lord return to this matter? I am not sure that all the Members of the Committee are satisfied by the Minister's observations. The noble Lord appeared to be abandoning the point altogether. Instead, will the noble Lord say that he will consider what the Minister has said and may return to it at a later stage?
Lord Howell of Guildford: I propose to withdraw the amendment at this stage, but these are ongoing issues of great importance. I believe that I said in so many words that again and again we shall return to the question of who calls the shots on human rights in which jurisdiction. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 2 to 6 not moved.]
5.30 p.m.
Lord Howell of Guildford moved Amendment No. 7:
- Page 1, line 9, at beginning insert "Article 1 (other than paragraph 2, subsection 1, revising Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union),"
The noble Lord said: As I promised, at the start I set out that the amendments in the second group focus on Articles 17 and 25 of the Treaty on European Union, not the Treaty on the European Communities—we shall plunge into that later—for some reason that is not entirely clear to me. The amendments address Articles 17 and 25 which are concerned generally with common foreign and security policy and specifically the idea of developing a common defence policy with the EU as a military power—some say superpower—in the world. It is perfectly true that they do not mention the concept of a rapid reaction force. I should like to ask the Minister whether the treaty base for that particular initiative lies in previous treaties, not this one. However, it is not entirely clear whether the treaty changes in Articles 17 and 25 were and are necessary to pave the way for the so-called rapid reaction force, but clearly they address the position of member states vis à vis NATO and the Western European Union.
These very important matters are intimately bound up with the whole debate about the development of a common defence policy on which I intend to concentrate my remarks. I intend to draw particular attention to the new clause proposed in Amendment No. 40, which is also part of this group of amendments. That requests the Government to be more forthcoming and clear in their explanations of what is happening in relation to the functions of the Western European Union and NATO and the future of those organisations as a result of the revisions to Articles 17 and 25. Those are areas of enormous controversy.
I shall deal in later amendments with the question in Article 24 of the development of foreign policy—on the hint of a greater application of qualified majority voting to the implementation of certain aspects of agreed foreign policy. The past few dramatic weeks have produced two remarkably distinct and contradictory views about how the European Union has performed in relation to the global war against terrorism.
One view is that it has been a bit of a flop; there has been a great deal of argument; and the solidarity of the European Union has not been very evident. The other view is that it has been very evident indeed; and that Europe has spoken with a single voice and done splendidly. The excellent Mr Romano Prodi this morning was reported in the papers as simultaneously holding both views.
We shall come to that matter later. I will turn instead to the implications of the amendments for future development of common defence. The amendments which the Nice treaty made to previous treaties added in Article 25 an important word. To "political committee" were added the words "and security"—
Political and Security Committee. That is part of the move towards greater authority and involvement of that committee in military matters. I believe that the committee is chaired by General Ha gglund. He is a Finnish gentleman. Finland is not a member of NATO. The committee is obviously a very important new mechanism on the scene.Can the Minister bring us up to date on how that committee will work with its new and extended remit—Political and Security Committee—and how it relates to the plans for the rapid reaction force? That force will contain 60,000 operational troops. A figure of 240,000 for support troops has been mentioned. How is that getting on? How does it relate to these aspirations for common defence?
I have made it clear from these Benches before, as have many of my noble friends, that we on this side are greatly in favour of a stronger European defence contribution to global security. We expect increased defence spending—we have not seen it yet—in the member states, compatible with a far more effective European contribution within NATO. We want it to remain within the NATO structure.
Some of us feel and have felt all along—I know that the noble Baroness does not agree—that this word "autonomy", which first turned up in the St Malo agreements, bedevils the argument. The Nice treaty discussions at the Nice Council seemed to make it crystal clear that the planning arrangements for the future—of which the Political and Security Committee is an element—were to be outside NATO, not within it.
All through debates on this subject we continue to have unsatisfactory replies on where and how this autonomy is to be expressed. If it is to be outside NATO, why is that so? General Sir Charles Guthrie, who was then Chief of the Defence Staff, said:
- "I suppose it could have been done within the NATO framework, and in some ways it would have been easier".
- "We must be able to act alone".
- "deeply worried by any kind of planning separation".
Whether we like it or not, I suspect that this project will go ahead, even if there are difficulties with the Turks. I hope that those difficulties are beginning to be resolved. But the whole project really is not about defence. It is not even about the Petersberg tasks, which could or could not be done separately from the Americans, but with their help and probably with their equipment and back-up and heavy lift and so on. It is
about identity. It is about a search for a European identity, because the Europe that people are searching for apparently is one that must have a force, a military expression and a flag. Even a marching song is part of the necessary equipment.This is a snark-like hunt for a greater European weight and projection of importance which is dressed up as a security issue. It is an identity issue. It is one that does not fit in to the new international order and the network and nexus of relationships of which the world is now composed. It is a centralising, out-of-date idea. It is a Europe as an upgraded replicated nation state idea, which, as I said on an earlier amendment, does not fit into the modern world. It is also a top-down initiative of the kind with which European citizens are beginning to lose patience. From now on, whatever was achieved in the Monnet years of the first four decades of the European Union, the democratic system will want much more of a direct say in the endless initiatives that come out of the European institutions and the European system. That is in great danger of creating indigestion in a hurry, which loses all historical perspective.
One of the amendments urges that there should be a report before Parliament as per our new clause. That is the one on which I should like to focus in particular while raising the other points about the evolution of Europe as a military power. That is not what many of us, even now, hope it will be. It should have a higher or more subtle mission than that. I beg to move.
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