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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: If the noble Lord will allow me to intervene, I was careful not to disagree with my noble friend Lord Stoddart, in particular when he deplored the decline of interest in politics. We all deplore that. It may be that to some extent it can be attributed to the decline in active membership of political parties, and that in turn can be attributed to all sorts of alternative forms of leisure activity.
But it is a bit remote from this amendment to suggest that the existence of European political parties can be attributed to the decline in interest in politics or that it would be made better if there was less funding from the European Parliament of European political parties.
Lord Howell of Guildford: I am talking about the propositions before us; that is, the regulations governing the funding of European-level political parties. I am using this as an example of the sort of thing that, as we survey an increasingly worrying scene, with the loss of interest in political choices—people find that through the marketplace or non-elected bodies they can achieve their aims and obtain decisions faster than they can through politics—we should take more seriously. We should ensure that
national legislatures—though they do not always command the respect a democrat would like—have a say in how these specific regulations are developed.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: But surely that can be turned on its head as well. The fact that there are other ways in which we as individuals, as consumers, can achieve our desires in society other than through political parties is part of a wider democracy than purely political parties. That in turn is not a bad thing.
Lord Howell of Guildford: We are getting into very deep water here. I should like to see the political side of the choices of life made more accessible. The noble Lord may think I come from a party that is fanatically keen on markets. But I know perfectly well that markets do not work in a vacuum; they work in a good political framework. If the political framework becomes remote, discredited or unconnected with people voting at the grass roots, then we are all the losers—the market systems, the wealth-creating engines of our societies, the political system and the democratic stability and peace we all want.
I see those issues as all of a piece, and it is important that they are brought back to national parliaments. We have a lot of other ideas for areas where we should return the decision-making of the European Union—or bring it closer—to national parliaments. They must be involved much earlier in the scrutiny of initiatives and to a much greater degree than they are now, otherwise this draining out of legitimacy will continue.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Again, there is no conflict between us on this. But there is a conflict in the amendment. Nothing in the provisions of the Treaty of Nice, as proposed here, in any way takes away from the role of national parliaments. Indeed, my noble friend Lady Symons made that very clear in her speech
at Second Reading. She spoke of the problems which the Prime Minister identified at Warsaw—the problem of simplifying treaties to make them easier to understand; to improve accountability and transparency; and to involve national parliamentarians.I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, agrees with that. I would have thought that was common ground between us.
Lord Howell of Guildford: I remain committed to all that will genuinely enhance the role of national parliamentarians and command the respect and trust of the electors that national parliamentarians are involved in the thread of democracy that must run up through the nation state to the European institutions, reinforced of course by the European Parliament. That is why I should like to see a more favourable response from the Government to the new clause we tabled. I know we cannot take this to a vote now and I would not want to. But after new Clause 3, Amendment No. 41 is a perfectly reasonable proposition that I hope all those who want to see our democratic institutions enhanced and refreshed will be ready to support.
I have a feeling that I am not going to make much progress with that argument at this time of the night. It is something to which we would like to return later. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Grocott: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- House adjourned at nineteen minutes before eleven o'clock.
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