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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I think I said at our debate in January, and I certainly repeat it, that the Government would of course need to take account very seriously of the recommendations made by your Lordships' Select Committee. The debate today and what has been happening in the last two or three weeks make that even more imperative.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I appreciate that clarification, because that does open up the possibility of some common ground being found in different parts of your Lordships' House.
In January the Minister said to the House that there were no new fundamental issues raised by the regulations which had been placed before us, and the Government told us that CNR—cell nuclear replacement—was lawful. Clearly those two assertions have been disproved in the High Court. The noble Lord, Lord Winston, said to us during that same debate that,
- Xthere is not the slightest possibility of human clones".—[Official Report, 22/1/01; col. 100.]
Clearly the events of the last 24 hours demonstrate that things have been moving very fast in this debate. To make legislation as we proceed, as it were on the hoof, may therefore not be the best way of dealing with things.
The Government's eagerness to dispense with detailed scrutiny, transparency and proper parliamentary opposition does seem to be undimmed. As the noble Lord, Lord Roper, alluded to in the debate on 21st November, the Bill has been drafted in such a way as to avoid substantive amendments. Therefore, the exclusion of the implantation of a cloned human embryo into an animal, into artificial wombs, even into men, or the sale or exportation of cloned human embryos, are not dealt with in this Bill, and it is impossible, as the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, said earlier, to bring amendments in order to deal with those omissions.
The Government do not appear to have learnt any lessons from January. They have adopted a conveyor-belt approach to legislation. In an age when politicians are seeking to arrest growing public apathy towards parliamentary politics and the lack of public confidence in our democratic procedures, the Government's approach is wholly counterproductive. My noble friend Lady Warnock said in the debate in January that the Government were shovelling through the unamendable regulations and she said elsewhere that there was an element of bullying involved.
The legitimacy of the consultation process has therefore been seriously undermined and does nothing to assuage the concerns raised by the Select Committee of your Lordships' House that looks at science and technology, which said that the ethical debate and scientific debate are out of sequence and that public opinion is therefore being alienated. They said that Xscience's relationship with United Kingdom society is under strain".
Looking at the Bill itself, in banning live birth cloning it deals with only one aspect of Mr Justice Crane's recent High Court judgement. In a letter to Members of your Lordships' House dated 22nd November, the Minister wrote, XWe must legislate urgently to ban human reproductive cloning". Yet the Bill does nothing to stop the creation of a human clone. As the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, pointed out in his admirable remarks, it merely prohibits the transfer of a cloned human embryo into a woman.
Up until last week, the Government had indicated that, despite the warnings from myself and others that the 2001 regulations were legally flawed, there was no rush to place a ban on live birth cloning on a statutory footing. As the Minister informed this House in July,
- Xwe recognise and share the concerns of many people about human reproductive cloning. However, that cannot be carried out in the UK. ...We have stated our clear intention to introduce primary legislation to put this ban on a statutory footing as soon as parliamentary time allows".—[Official Report, 4/7/01; col. 816]
It would appear, however, as others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, have said, that because Severino Antinori had appeared on the scene this spurred the Government into action. The explanatory note to the Bill states,
- XThis Bill fulfils the Government's commitment to bring in legislation to put the ban on human reproductive cloning onto a statutory footing. It is brought forward following the judgement of the High Court on 15th November 2001."
In other words, the Bill is a response to the High Court finding, not a response to Severino Antinori. In that sense, we must judge it against the High Court judgment and not just against Antinori. Having sought advice from the Library of your Lordships' House, I was told:
- XIn response to your recent enquiry I am advised by the Home Office (Immigration and Nationality Directorate) that the Secretary of State is able to exclude a person from entering the UK under his general powers to regulate the entry of people into the UK. These powers are set out in ss. 1-4 of the Immigration Act 1971 (. . . which gives the current text, i.e. as amended by subsequent legislation). Section 3(5)(a) gives the Secretary of State power to deport a person from the UK if he deems it 'to be conducive to the public good'."
In other words, if we simply wanted to stop Antinori from entering the United Kingdom, the provision is already there without an Act of Parliament. I might add, however, that if he were to come here and carry out the procedures that he is suggesting, due to the serious medical risks inherent in live birth cloning—a point referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould—any doctor who carried out such a procedure would not be acting ethically, could be subject to GMC censure, and could even find himself or herself facing possible criminal assault charges.
More importantly, if the Government are so concerned about the prospects of scientists coming here to practise live birth cloning, the safest thing to do would be to prohibit human cloning in all its forms, not just the implantation of cloned embryos in women, at least until the Select Committee on stem cell research has submitted its recommendations and Parliament has a proper opportunity to debate these issues.
The Bill's failure to prohibit human cloning in all its forms is not its only flaw, however. The Bill fails to outlaw the transfer of a cloned human embryo to an animal, unlike Section 3(3) of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 which does specifically prohibit the transfer of a non-cloned human embryo to an animal.
The spectre of animal-human hybrids is an increasingly real one. There are now at least three groups that have created animal-human hybrids from animal eggs and human nuclei. There are patent applications to cover this and many other similar forms of animal-human hybrid. There is also a patent application to create animal-human chimeras, which could be part or virtually total clones, and take them into animal wombs.
As drafted, the Bill does nothing to stop cloned animal-human embryos, first from being developed beyond the 14-day stage either in culture or in vivo; secondly, from being implanted into a woman, as they are not Xembryos" according to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990, and, thirdly, from being implanted into an animal. In addition, if embryonic stem cells derived via experimental cloning were multiplied up and used as the donor nuclei, large numbers of clones could be produced.
The Donaldson committee recommendation number six stated that,
- XThe mixing of human adult (somatic) cells with the live eggs of any animal species should not be permitted".
The Bill also fails to prohibit the transfer of a cloned human embryo to a man or to an artificial womb. Lest your Lordships think I am simply being mischievous, in 1999 the noble Lord, Lord Winston, argued,
- XMale pregnancy would certainly be possible and would be the same as when a woman has an ectopic pregnancy—outside the uterus—although to sustain it, you'd have to give the man lots of female hormones".
- Xthere is no reason why a man could not carry a child".
The Bill also criminalises women who, for one reason or another, are implanted with a cloned human embryo. That is an issue with which I hope the Minister intends to deal. I sought to tackle it by tabling an amendment to which we will come in Committee. But if a woman, through no fault of her own, was implanted in an IVF centre and did not know what the
nature of the embryo was, she could be subject to the 10-year prison sentence and fine contained in the Bill. Or she may have had a change of mind, having first been fertilised and later on changing her decision.Another glaring omission from the Bill is its failure in defining the principal terms used, including what is meant by Xhuman embryo" or Xfertilisation". Those are not defined in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act. The Government overlooked the full significance, therefore, of Mr Justice Crane's High Court judgment and the scientific advances in this field which render many procedures outside the regulatory scope of the HFE Act and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. Parliament deserves a proper opportunity to think again about the law in this area but this rushed legislation squanders that opportunity.
Looking for a moment at the international perspective, the Bill fails to meet our obligations under Articles 2 and 14 (to be read in conjunction with Article 2) of the European Convention on Human Rights in that it permits a category of human life to be created that is destined for destruction through research and experimentation. Again, I hope that when the Minister replies he will clarify on what basis the compatibility statement has been signed on the face of the Bill. Furthermore, why does the Bill fail to set out the process for prosecution of the offence in Scotland?
As your Lordships can see, the Bill is flawed. The Government have not properly thought it through. We legislate in haste and repent at leisure. It compounds the mistakes made by the Department of Health in January and it would have been far more prudent to introduce a comprehensive Bill forbidding human cloning in all its forms.
It is also unnecessary to create cloned human embryos so as to extract their stem cells for use in clinical research and treatments. Astonishing progress is being made, as the right reverend Prelate said earlier, in the way in which diseases and conditions can be treated using adult stem cells. That stands in marked contrast to the absence of progress using embryonic stem cells. Last week, in the evidence heard by the Select Committee, it was stated that there had been no clinical treatments involving embryonic stem cells and that there had been few successes in animal models; that they are difficult to obtain as pure culture in the dish; that they are difficult to establish and maintain; that there are problems of immune rejection; that there is a potential for tumour formation; and that there is generic instability.
By comparison, adult stem cells avoid those problems with transplant rejection. Also avoided are the growing public health risks being demonstrated with embryonic stem cells. The serious and unpredictable medical risks include teratoma and teratocarcinoma formation (including hidden abnormalities) and the tendency towards unregulated growth. Those who, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in last week's debate, speak of the Xpotential" of adult stem cells, should examine the current clinical
applications of adult stem cells and contrast that with the dearth of clinical applications for embryonic stem cells. In addition, those noble Lords who endorse the view of the committee of my noble friend Lady Warnock, that the embryo has a Xspecial status", might like to reflect on the points I made earlier.To conclude, while I support the prohibition of live cloning, the Government have failed to learn from their mistakes, railroading rushed and flawed legislation through Parliament. Restricting the ability of Members of both Houses to amend such legislation is dangerous from a medical-scientific perspective, and also from a procedural perspective. It demonstrates a contempt for the scrutinising role of Parliament. It subverts Parliament. Cloning human beings also carries awesome consequences for humanity.
This Bill fails to outlaw many practices that are repulsive and abhorrent. It will not create settled law but exhibits all the faults which have characterised the Government's earlier attempts at regulation. The prospect is that we will be back again on a regular basis every time someone like Severino Antinori comes up with an odious idea. How much better it would have been if we had worked with the grain of international opinion instead of pandering to the vested interests of the biotech industry. Only last week the European Parliament outlawed any funding, either for reproductive or therapeutic cloning. Almost all of our European neighbours share that view and the American Congress, by a majority of 100, outlawed the use of cloning for experimental purposes. We should have done the same.
4.36 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I am very aware that the dilemma in which we find ourselves today consists of legal, political and moral elements. As a bishop I do not necessarily have the competence to comment on the legal and political areas of this debate. But I should like, if I may, to express some concern about what I see as one of the moral dimensions.
I suppose one of the definitions of what makes a work of art Xgreat", is that in its presence we experience what can only be described as a Xshudder of recognition". It shakes us to our foundations, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually, and makes us reassess what life's purpose might be. For instance, I think of seeing Epstein's XJacob wrestling with the angel" at the Tate Britain, or of listening to Bach's XB Minor". I get that same Xshudder of recognition" when I come across a line of poetry that stops me in my tracks. For example, I think of St Augustine's yearning cry that echoes down the centuries:
- XLate have I loved thee, beauty so old and so new, late have I loved thee".
The Xshudder of recognition" that those works of art elicit comes from an awareness deep within our souls that in their presence we are on the threshold of absolute beauty and absolute truth. We have to take our shoes from off our feet because the ground on which we stand is holy.
Those Xshudders of recognition" can occur at the other end of the human scale; for instance, when we encounter appalling cruelty. The shudder then is a recognition of an existential abyss into which any of us can topple, either individually or collectively. There are other moments too when we experience the Xshudder of recognition"; for example, when a moral issue seems so massive and so far-reaching that one can only approach it with patient awe.
I was present in the House for our debate on cloning in January and recall how strong was my sense that some of us were in too much of a hurry, too eager, too caught up in the heady delights of progress to be able to give our attention to the full implications of what we were debating. But today we are in an even greater hurry. Of course, I agree that the perceived loophole, if it exists, must be closed with extreme urgency. But our very haste, I venture to suggest, is a signal that we lack genuine clarity about the legal, political and moral implications of what we are doing in this entire cloning area. That may be due to three reasons.
First, we may have made too easy and too neat a distinction between therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning. Who can possibly be against anything described as therapeutic? But is it not possible to imagine a situation in which a couple or an individual seek reproductive cloning on what they would genuinely call therapeutic grounds?
Secondly, we may be in too much haste and there is lack of clarity as we have ignored the fact that basic human characteristics such as greed or, less obviously but more potently, the lust for power, can be found as much in areas of medical research as in any company boardroom or, come to that, in any cathedral close.
Thirdly, we have become so seduced by our technological skills that the moral enormity of what we are doing and the sheer scale of our audacity have dwarfed and threaten to silence conscience, wisdom and that collective sensibility which alone ensure genuine moral freedom. I believe, however, that in this debate and in our nation there is a Xshudder of recognition" that human reproductive cloning is inherently and absolutely wrong and must be prevented at all costs.
I believe that we shall do ourselves, our nation and the future no favours if we fail to realise that that Xshudder of recognition" over human reproductive cloning must make us raise further questions about all kinds of cloning. What I hope we can create this day is a Bill which clearly and unequivocally forbids and prevents all reproductive human cloning in this country. But I also look for—and I am sure I shall be given—a cast-iron assurance that when the Select Committee reports enough time will be allowed for a debate here and throughout our nation so that our moral sensibilities about the whole issue of cloning may be refined rather than be bludgeoned into submission by those with the political, technological or financial power to do so and who sometimes seem to regard what I have called Xshudders of recognition"
as merely the over-excited reactions of our central nervous systems rather than gateways into the absolute which is at the heart of all things.4.43 p.m.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, when I first joined your Lordships' House in 1989 my baptism of fire, as it were, was my involvement in debates on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, as it then was. That Bill eventually became an Act with large majorities in both Houses of Parliament. Since that time it has been legal, under licence from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, to carry out experiments on human embryos up to 14 days after fertilisation. I think I can speak with authority in saying that that responsibility of awarding licences to only high quality research has been well fulfilled by that authority since that time.
That particular Act made it clear that such research would be involved only in, first, improving methods of human fertilisation and, secondly, in the prevention of human disability and disease. It did not include within its terms of reference the treatment of disease. But it did specifically preclude cross-species fertilisation, transfer of gametes and a number of other processes such as embryo splitting.
Today we are not debating the issues which were considered in depth during a lengthy debate in January on the regulations introduced by the Government in order to amend that Act to make possible developments of crucial importance in the treatment of human disease. Those procedures involved the use of spare human embryos, which became spare during processes of in vitro fertilisation, as a source of embryonic stem cells. During that debate we also considered the process of cell nuclear transfer not only for the creation of embryos but also for the prevention of mitochondrial disease.
Those are not issues which we are considering today as they are before the Select Committee of your Lordships' House chaired by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford. I have no doubt whatever that the Government will make adequate time available to consider the recommendations of that Select Committee when the time arises. Today we are concerned solely with the question of whether this House should pass a Bill to proscribe, to ban and to make illegal reproductive cloning, rather than therapeutic cloning which relates to the use of stem cells derived from embryos created by nuclear transfer. Like my noble friend Lord Alton, I wholly agree—as the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, stated in her original report—that the human embryo must be treated with great respect. However, I disagree with him when he talks of the killing, discarding or degeneration of human embryos, bearing in mind the fact that millions of fertilised ova and human embryos which never implant in the wall of the uterus are flushed down the toilet every day in the course of normal human fertilisation.
But let me return to the primary purpose of the Bill which is to ban the process of cloning of a human embryo by cell nuclear transfer and its subsequent
implanting in the uterus of a woman. That is the sole purpose of the Bill. Many powerful speeches have been made today on both sides of the House. I particularly refer to the powerful speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Brennan and Lord Winston. I strongly agree with the views that have been expressed. I believe that the process of attempting to clone an identical human being is not only morally but also ethically repugnant. For that reason the objectives underlying the Bill are ones which I wholly support.But equally I could not support any attempt to extend the Bill to therapeutic cloning produced by cell nuclear transplantation. I agree that there are problems in that field, but, as many other noble Lords have said this afternoon, the hopes that may arise for the treatment of diseases from the development of stem cells from such a source are huge. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said, the problem of genomic imprinting, the fact that it took 277 attempts before Dolly the sheep could be cloned and the problem that such a process might well lead to major abnormalities in the foetus or in the individual so produced are so huge that reproductive cloning must be banned. In the meantime work on therapeutic cloning has to be carefully examined by research workers and carefully controlled. I have no doubt that this issue will be examined in the report of the stem cell committee chaired, as I said, by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford.
Adult stem cells provide a considerable prospect for research in the future, but all the scientists to whom I have spoken who are deeply involved in this research are absolutely confident that at the moment the flexibility and potential of adult stem cells is considerably less than that of embryonic stem cells.
In an attempt to try to overcome a problem that I saw in relation to this Bill as it stands, I tabled an amendment that we shall have an opportunity to discuss later today. A gamete is a reproductive cell; the male gamete is the sperm and the female gamete is the ovum. When the two are combined they form a zygote, which is an embryo. The difficulty that I saw related to the legal judgment in the High Court on 15th November, in which the judge concluded that an embryo produced by cell nuclear transplantation was not an embryo in accordance with the terms of the 1990 Act. However, I have now learnt that that particular conclusion of mine was not correct because the judge referred solely to embryos produced by fertilisation and did not refer to an embryo produced by cell nuclear transplantation.
My amendment attempts to define the embryo relating to this particular Bill as a female gamete modified by nuclear transplantation. However, since tabling the amendment I have realised that there are means other than nuclear transplantation whereby in the future embryos may be created. One that is emerging as a result of animal research is so-called parthenogenetic production of embryos from which stem cells can be produced through various methods of manipulation of the female ovum. Therefore, my
amendment would not meet that particular objection, so at the appropriate time in Committee stage I shall not move it.I believe that this Bill, short though it is, is one that we in this House must support. It is crucial that we should ban reproductive cloning. Although the wording of the Bill is brief, I believe that it is sufficient to cover and to include all presently known and presently predicted processes of so-called reproductive cloning; for example, the production of identical human beings. For that reason I warmly commend the Bill to the House.
4.52 p.m.
Lord Rea: My Lords, like the Bill I shall be brief. My noble friend has explained its single purpose which again has been clearly outlined by my noble friend Lord Walton: that is, to stop—I was going to say embryos but perhaps I should say early humans, although people may say that they are not humans yet until a primitive streak is laid down— early human creations that are formed by cell nuclear transfer, being implanted in a woman's uterus with the implied intention of allowing that embryo to develop into a human foetus and infant. The dangers have been fully outlined by my noble friend Lord Winston and to some extent also by my noble friend Lord Walton.
On the other hand, an embryo produced by fertilisation of an ovum by a spermatozoon can still be implanted but, of course, it would be subject to all the regulations and requirements of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990, supplemented by the Research Purposes Regulations laid down earlier this year and overseen by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) as my noble friend Lord Walton has outlined.
The need for this short Bill to be given an accelerated passage through your Lordships' House is the judgment of the High Court 11 days ago. That judgment brought to light a loophole in the legislation that would allow human reproductive cloning to be attempted by doubtful enthusiasts, such as Professor Severino Antinori, who, shortly after the court's decision, announced his intention to head for Britain soon to set up a clinic. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, may be right in saying that he could not possibly set up that clinic before the Select Committee of your Lordships' House has reported nor before other legislation has been considered that may arise from that report. However, as she admitted, she could be wrong and it would be wrong of the Government to take such a risk.
This simple Bill has one purpose, which is to stop such activities. It is, of course, possible that further legislation may be necessary after the Select Committee has reported, and possibly after the Government's appeal has been heard. As science develops and new techniques become possible, further legislation may be required. That may answer some of the fears of the noble Lord, Lord Alton.
Today's news of the creation of a cloned human pre-embryo—consisting so far of only six cells—by the privately financed biotech company, Advanced Cell
Technology, in Worcester, Massachusetts accentuates the need for this Bill, although in this case the scientists concerned state that they have no intention of implanting that particular embryo to allow full development—I am again probably mis-naming the cells as an embryo.It would be wrong to delay or to extend the scope of the Bill, which is quite specific and urgent. With respect to noble Lords who have laid down amendments, I believe that my noble friend will be able to reassure them that they are not necessary, so that this Bill can go through, unamended, to the other place. I support the Bill and hope that it has a speedy passage.
4.57 p.m.
Lord Patel: My Lords, like the Bill, I too shall be short and precise. Unfortunately, some statements have been made on which I feel a need to comment. I strongly support the Bill. I believe that it is timely, appropriate and proportionate. Reproductive cloning is wrong for all kinds of reasons which I shall not rehearse again as they have been addressed already by the noble Lords, Lord Brennan and Lord Winston.
The Bill prevents the implanting into a woman of an embryo that has been created by a means other than fertilisation of gametes. Therefore, I believe that it is all encompassing, which is right. I was pleased to hear my noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant suggest that his amendment may not be correct.
However, the Bill does not prevent the very necessary research on stem cells—adult and embryonic—including on embryonic stem cells following cell nuclear replacement, or genomic transfer. I believe that is also right. Unlike my colleague the noble Lord, Lord Winston, I am not associated with any stem cell research, but I chair the Medical Research Council's Genetic Advisory Committee, so I am familiar with the current state of stem cell research.
The debate today is not about research, but about principles—about whether human reproductive cloning should be allowed. No serious scientist wants to see that happen; neither, I believe, does the wider society. The other side of the debate is whether it is morally and ethically right to permit any research on very early embryos obtained following fertilisation or following cell nuclear replacement technology.
I respect those views but serious scientists working in this area are clear: research on embryonic stem cells holds the greatest promise of delivering treatments for very serious diseases, including congenital abnormalities, degenerative diseases, endocrine diseases, cancers and others. I also believe that the majority of the public and those organisations which represent patients understand and approve the need for such research, especially in a regulated and controlled environment.
We can discuss whether or not research in adult stem cells has progressed to a stage where embryonic stem cell research is necessary. So far, it clearly has not. The research is very preliminary and is not that promising. Adult stem cells are older and, therefore, have shorter
life spans. They require manipulation in order to extend their life. They have limited specialisation. They are already in organs and cannot easily be turned into other cell types. Also, they can be obtained only in small numbers. Half an adult brain would be required in order to gather sufficient neuronal stem cells.Despite those limitations, adult stem cell research must continue. The ultimate goal should be the ability to use adult stem cells for all cell types. We should aim to reach the stage where we dedifferentiate adult cells so that they have the potential to behave like embryonic stem cells and are able to form all cell types. That is the aim, but how shall we learn to do that? We shall do so only if we continue the fruitful research on embryonic stem cells.
Unlike that relating to adult stem cells, embryonic cell research is more recent and therefore less is known about it. Adult stem cell research is nearly two decades old. Despite that, we have learned much from animal embryonic stem cell research, mainly from experiments on mice but also from those on other animals. Unlike adult stem cells, embryonic stem cells can form over 200 cell types. They exist in large numbers. In fact, they can probably form all cell types in the body. They can form the biological cell types of entire organs. They are at the headwaters of development and are capable of making every cell type downstream. Embryonic stem cell research is the only means of understanding cell differentiation. That is why we should allow it to take place.
I turn briefly to the subject of cell nuclear transfer and genomic replacement. I shall set out why I believe that it is necessary to allow such research to continue at present. One of the key reasons—there are others—why there is a need to allow research on embryos following cell nuclear transfer is to understand the mechanisms involved in tissue rejection and to solve the problems of immune matching. Therein will lie our ability to conduct stem cell replacement treatment without patients having to take immuno-suppressive drugs for the rest of their lives, with the obvious consequences that ensue from that.
It is clear that all stem cell research—adult and embryonic—is necessary. I support the Bill and I hope that the House will pass it swiftly.
5.4 p.m.
Lord Turnberg: My Lords, I hope that your Lordships will forgive my continuing this onslaught by doctors—I see that I am the fourth in line. Since 1990 the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority has carried out its work impeccably. It has strictly regulated and licensed what research can be done and how it should be done. During the whole of that time it has drawn no criticisms that it, or the medical scientists who are carrying out the research, has behaved improperly.
The facility to control research on human embryos has become the envy of the world as other countries try to grapple with the ethical and scientific dilemmas posed by advances in the bio-sciences. I am sure that
that has something to do with the confidence that your Lordships had in extending earlier this year the reasons why research on human embryos could be performed to include stem cell research for adult diseases.It is the case that any researcher foolhardy enough to seek a licence to undertake reproductive cloning in the UK would have been turned down at any time during the history of the HFEA. If researchers had persisted in doing so without a licence, they would have committed a criminal act. The Government said that they intended to strengthen the legislation in this area. However, in its wisdom, the High Court has ruled that a cloned embryo is not an embryo so far as concerns the HFEA, and it has left a loophole which needs to be closed. It is obvious that the prohibition of human reproductive cloning has the support of the whole House. I echo the wise words of my noble friend Lord Winston about the dangers of human reproductive cloning and the time-scale involved in terms of its advances.
However, we should not now be using this opportunity to revisit the whole debate about research on human embryos in general and on stem cells in particular. The case for embryonic stem cell research remains the same as it was early this year; namely, carrying out research which has the potential to give relief to sufferers from a wide variety of diseases while, at the same time, preserving the special dignity that must be afforded to human embryos by close regulation within a clear legal framework.
That, I believe, is what we achieved with the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act and what, I hope, the Select Committee will endorse. Once we move away from a clear-cut ban on reproductive cloning, we move into very unclear waters. For example—perhaps noble Lords will forgive me if I become a little biological here—we know that every nucleus in every cell of the human body carries a copy of all the genes which are necessary to reproduce that individual. Stem cells, whether derived from adults or from embryos, can and do transmit their characteristics to their cellular offspring. Viewed in that light, stem cells formed from an adult nucleus, whether that nucleus has been transplanted into an empty egg cell or simply from the adult cell itself, have similar potential from an ethical point of view, even if scientifically they may behave differently.
Given that, it seems so much more important to ban reproductive cloning, however it is achieved—there may be many ways in which it can be done—and to leave embryonic and adult stem cell research to continue.
5.8 p.m.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, as a member of your Lordships' Select Committee on stem cell research, I shall say, for obvious reasons, nothing about stem cell research. We have only just finished taking evidence. That may, of course, help me to stay rather nearer to the subject of this Bill because it is not about stem cell research.
I believe that I can only add to the debate, to which I have listened with enormous interest, a suggestion that it is not entirely obvious that emergency legislation is needed to ensure that reproductive cloning is prevented. The need for haste supposedly arises as a result of the High Court judgment of 15th November in which Mr Justice Crane held that the HFE Act 1990 should be interpreted strictly as applying only to embryos produced by fertilisation. The perception of urgency has, of course, been heightened by the excitable Dr Antinori, who states that he will come to the UK to clone a human embryo. I believe that in the wake of the High Court ruling and even without the passage of this Bill he might find the UK regulatory system to be less than helpful. Legal advice to the Government gave the impression that there was more to prevent him than the High Court ruling suggests. I take it that it was entirely reasonable for the Government to rely on that advice. What else can they rely on until the matter has been tested before the courts?
Before the birth of Dolly, the courts would probably have viewed the process that was used to produce her as being impossible. After her birth, there was an awareness that there might be a problem with the definition of an embryo in the legislation. Nevertheless, the legal advice was that that was not material.
The recent judgment seemingly removes the protection of the 1990 Act from organisms that were produced by nuclear replacement. They are held not to be embryos, as defined in the Act, despite their apparent functional equivalence. It is ironic to reflect that that action was brought by a group that was committed to the protection of the human embryo and which regards the organisms that are produced by cell nuclear replacement techniques as embryos. Even if it was thought that the Act offered defective protection, the received interpretation was a massive deterrent to anybody who was tempted by reproductive cloning. One might have supposed that the Pro-Life Alliance would have judged it important to wait until the promised legislation preventing reproductive cloning—or more—was in place before it sought to challenge the 1990 Act.
Seen with hindsight, the defect in the 1990 Act is that it uses a two-part definition of the embryo. Comparable defects have often been revealed by the progress of science: it was once common to define mammals as viviparous animals that suckle their young. Then the inconvenient duck-billed platypus challenged the definition by turning out to be an egg-laying animal that suckles its young. In the Act the embryo is identified, albeit only implicitly, by its purpose or function as an organism that may, if implanted successfully, develop into a foetus, a child and ultimately a full person. On the other hand, it is also identified by its origin in fertilisation. If both criteria must be satisfied for the Act to apply, as the High Court has held, organisms that are functionally equivalent to embryos that are created by fertilisation, but which are not created by fertilisation, are not embryos for the purposes of the Act.
It is tempting to think that the response should have been for Parliament to revisit the 1990 Act on a wider front and rapidly to provide a revised definition of the embryo. I believe that that task may be quite complex. However, since I do not wish to go near to any of the topics with which the Select Committee is dealing, I simply suggest that even without this Bill the 1990 Act still provides substantial protection against human reproductive cloning and against some other possibilities.
Even if the High Court's ruling is upheld and the HFEA no longer has jurisdiction over organisms that are created by cell nuclear replacement, there is protection because cell nuclear replacement is not a free-standing technique—although it bypasses fertilisation, it requires a human egg. Section 4(1)(a) of the 1990 Act prohibits those without a licence from storing human gametes; that is, human eggs and sperm. Moreover, Section 41(2)(b) makes it an offence to contravene Section 4(1)(a). The further use of human gametes either for infertility treatment or for research is well within the control of the HFEA, and the Act explicitly provides in paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 2 that a licence for infertility treatment cannot be given,
- Xunless it appears to the Authority to be necessary or desirable for the purpose of providing treatment services".
The authority has given a clear undertaking about what its view of reproductive cloning is. Even if the Bill were not passed—from what we have heard so far, I imagine that it will be—I do not think that Dr Antinori could take advantage of UK regulations and clone a human being in this country. Of course, in the longer run the declared policy of a statutory body is not guarantee enough; but we do not—and did not—need to panic. I support the Bill.
5.14 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the Bill, so far as it goes, should, and I believe will, be supported by the House today. However, it is not consistent with the High Court judgment and it does not go far enough.
It is practically eleven months to the day since we last debated the use of human embryos and the related subject of cloning. Back in January, I called for more time in which to consider this important ethical issue, and I do so again.
The High Court judgment cannot have come as a surprise to the Government. So many Members of this House and a number of experts outside it advised consistently that the creation of embryos by cell nuclear replacement was not covered by the 1990 Act. The new scientific procedure was not envisaged—it was not even contemplated—during the debates preceding and during the passage of the 1990 Act. Those points were put most forcefully when the Government placed a regulation before Parliament under the authority of the 1990 Act—they did so wrongly, as it transpired. To argue, as the Association of Medical Research Charities has, that Parliament has had a full opportunity to debate and determine the issue, is simply untrue.
There was no parliamentary scrutiny through the Bill procedure, the regulation was unamendable and it was taken in one day. The House was persuaded to approve the regulation on the advice of the Minister, who made unequivocal statements during that debate. He said:
- XThe position is simple. Reproductive cloning will not take place in the UK and these regulations cannot in any way make it happen. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that legislation will be brought before the House as soon as possible".
- Xreproductive cloning was illegal and would remain illegal",
- XWhat then is the purpose of the Bill to be brought before Parliament?".
- Xas I explained earlier, reproductive cloning cannot take place in this country because the authority has said that it would not, under any circumstances, license that. For any organisation or person to go ahead and attempt to do so would be in breach of the law that lays down those requirements".—[Official Report, 22/1/01; cols. 117-18.]
Parliament has not considered, through the normal parliamentary Bill procedure, the issue of CNR techniques either for human cloning or for therapeutic purposes. The Bill offers prohibition—important though that is—only against the placing in a woman of a human embryo that has been created other than by fertilisation.
I welcome the Government's desire at last to make it certain once and for all that human reproductive cloning is illegal in this country. However, as I have just explained, we had reassurance from the Government in January that reproductive cloning was illegal and that a Bill would be introduced to put the matter beyond doubt. It turns out that because of the High Court judgment of 15th November reproductive cloning is not governed by the law.
I turn to the judgment. The Government's Explanatory Notes, which accompany the Bill, state that that judgment,
- Xheld that embryos created by cell nuclear replacement were not governed by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990. As a consequence the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority could not implement a ban on reproductive cloning by refusing to licence any application for this purpose".
As I have already said, I welcome the Bill so far as it goes, but I do not believe that it goes far enough. First, it refers only to placing an embryo in a woman. The prospect of embryos being placed in animals was recognised as a reality in 1990 and specifically outlawed in Section 3(3)(b) of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990. No similar provision exists in this Bill.
Secondly, the Bill does not stop a cloned baby being developed in an artificial womb—or even in a man, should science allow such a thing. We know that that
is possible in animals. The Bill does not stop a cloned embryo from being created in this country and taken abroad for placing in a woman. The Sunday Times yesterday had an article entitled,
- XBritish expert may join bid to clone human",
The Bill introduces an offence of placing in a woman an embryo created by means other than fertilisation. While that may seem a simple offence, it begs many questions. I should like to ask the Minister how that offence will be policed. How will we know that such an offence has taken place, given that this appears to be outside any regulatory framework? Who is covered by the offence of placing? Is it the person who places the embryo in the womb or someone involved in preparing the cell nuclear replacement process? What is a human embryo for the purposes of the Act? If an embryo is created using an animal egg and a human donor cell, will that be covered?
I referred earlier to the Explanatory Notes. They fail to mention that as a result of the judgment, the HFEA cannot license any work on cloned embryos for research purposes. That means that any experiments can be done on human embryos created by cloning without any boundaries or limits. There will be disagreement between us on whether or not embryos should be used for research. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I agree that that is not the point of the Bill.
Legislating to stop human reproductive cloning acknowledges that cloned embryos can become fully human babies, yet there will be no protection for those same human embryos if they are used for research on stem cells. That is unacceptable. It creates two classes of embryo—one regulated and one unregulated—as well as raising practical questions. For instance, how long will the embryos be kept before being destroyed? What happens after the 14-day limit on research that is applied to embryos created by IVF? What consent will be obtained to create the embryos? If there is no regulation of the embryos and they grow beyond the embryo stage to a foetus, would it be illegal to implant a foetus?
The noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, in his contribution to the debate, stated—I expect that I shall paraphrase him badly; I tried to take notes—that the process of creating a clone with the potential for making a human being is abhorrent. We all agree with that. However, under the Bill, if passed, it will be possible to engage in the process. It is only implantation that is outlawed. Parliament has recognised that the human embryo has a special status, but the Bill affords cloned embryos none. There should be at least the same protection given to cloned embryos as to embryos created by IVF.
I understand that the reason there is no reference to embryos is because the Government want to appeal against the High Court judgment. That route is open to the Government, but in the mean time there is no protection for human embryos created by cloning. Surely with integrity the Government could introduce a Bill to ensure full protection of all cloned human embryos which could be amended at a later date, after the appeal date and after the Select Committee has sat. That would allow time for proper thought. In the mean time, embryos can be created here to be used for reproductive cloning elsewhere. Will Britain be the market-place for those countries which will not agree to ban reproductive cloning?
The Government are introducing the Bill to meet our international obligations. Much of the international community agrees that there should be a ban on reproductive cloning, but it should be done thoroughly and with proper scrutiny to ensure that all the loopholes really are closed. I have highlighted some of the serious flaws of the Bill which need addressing, and which we should be able to address. But the undue haste with which the measure has been introduced means that we cannot. In January, many of your Lordships felt that we were given insufficient time to debate the important issues before us. At that time I said,
- XTo deal with all these issues in an unamendable order is an affront to the democratic process". [Official Report, 22/1/01; col. 31.]
Some of these issues have been the subject of evidence to the Select Committee on stem cell research, to which the House agreed in January. There are important issues at stake. Although the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford said that a body of information on adult stem cell research has been read by the Select Committee, I am concerned to hear, which I believe to be the case, that no scientists working on adult stem cells have been called specifically to give evidence on their own merits. How can that be a fair hearing?
I am also concerned to learn that Professor Chris Higgins, the committee's scientific advisor, is on the academic board of the Tissue Engineering Centre at Imperial College, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Winston. I am sure that the House would agree that it is hard to see how that can be seen as impartial advice when the centre is working on embryonic stem cells. As the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, commented earlier, perception and public confidence in bio-science and
technology is important. Given the direct interest of the scientific adviser to the committee in cloning using CNR, my confidence, at least, has been sadly diminished.I shall not oppose the Bill. As we said in January, human reproductive cloning should be outlawed. The Government argued with apparent certainty at that time that it was already illegal. Therefore the court decision and the temporary change of heart on behalf of the Government, albeit late in the day and falling short of what is needed, is nevertheless welcome. On such complex scientific issues we need time to reflect on what the Government will say in response to this evening's debate. However, we shall not have that time. We can only hope that members of the other place will have the opportunity to study what is said in the debate in this House before they discuss it later in the week.
It is certain that the House will have to return to the issue of the introduction, regulation and licensing of cloning using CNR techniques. I hope that it will not be said that we have discussed the issues at length on a number of occasions. All discussions have been conducted in a framework of a straitjacket of unamendable and almost unamendable legislation.
In conclusion, last week in a potent leader, the Daily Telegraph stated:
- XThe new Bill will almost certainly not ban human cloning as Ministers claim, but merely the implantation of cloned embryos in the womb. The cloning of embryos solely for research, and their export, would remain legal and unregulated".
- Xone might have expected extremes of caution never before envisaged when Parliament decided to deal with legislation involving the building blocks of human life.
- Not this Government. It simply pushed its imperious steamroller ahead in the face of the best legal advice in the country, and it is now promising to do the same again".
5.28 p.m.
Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, this is a narrow and tightly drawn Bill with a narrow and specific purpose; namely, to fill a gap identified in the 1990 Act by the judicial review. It is not intended to be a comprehensive Bill addressing the various issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others, many of which, as the noble Lord, Lord Walton, indicated, had been carefully considered in the passing of the 1990 Act. Nor is it an occasion to raise issues about a report which the Select Committee has not yet published. I understand that it has not even begun to draw up its report.
The issue before us today is different from the subject of debate on 22nd January last when the House was deciding whether or not to extend the areas in which research on human embryos could be permitted under the 1990 Act, albeit in a way provided by that Act and in the light of developments in stem cell research.
I understand the deep concerns and the need to balance ethical and moral considerations with a possible advancement of medical science which results in the relief of much human suffering from a whole range of hitherto incurable diseases. But today the issue is surely much simpler. It is to restore the law to what it was assumed to be; namely, that the cloning of a human being is an offence under the 1990 Act and is thereby banned. That is a principle on which there is unanimity within this House, in the other place, and, apparently, in the country as a whole. We are all agreed that human reproductive cloning is abhorrent.
It is interesting to read the 15th November judgment of Mr Justice Crane and his summary of events since the report of the Warnock committee. Although the science was not sufficiently advanced at the time of the Warnock committee report, nevertheless it envisaged possible scientific advancement being such as to enable the cloning of a human being. Both the White Paper that followed and the government Bill—subsequently the 1990 Act—intended to outlaw such a possibility.
The report of the Donaldson committee in 2000, the Government's response to that report, and the 1991 regulations, all, as the judge indicated, proceeded on the basis that embryos created by cell nuclear replacement were governed by that Act. On the basis of the judge's literal interpretation of the 1990 Act, he concluded that it did not cover embryos created by CNR. He ruled accordingly.
The ruling leaves a gap in the legislation. The Government have correctly moved quickly to fill the gap. It is of the utmost importance that action is taken immediately to avoid uncertainty, leading to undue concern among people generally, and to prevent the possibility of rogue scientists at home or abroad trying to take advantage of the temporary situation in this country.
So far, media comment on the judicial review has been modest. However, following yesterday's announcement of further advances by American scientists, one can imagine some panic, especially as we recall both media and public reaction in 1997 when the cloning of Dolly the sheep was made known. There was, and still is, a real concern among people about the perceived possibility of cloning a human being. To be seen clearly to rule that out by law will do much to allay those fears. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, and my noble friend Lady Gould, that the Government must deal with the issue quickly.
I do not believe that, in general, the public are opposed to medical scientific advancement. On the contrary, they welcome continuing progress to find new cures for diseases and disorders. But they want to be absolutely certain that new knowledge is not used for wrong or ill purposes.
Some noble Lords have argued that there is no need for today's speedy action; that we should await the report of the Select Committee, chaired by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, and the Government's appeal against the judgment. Similar types of delaying arguments were put forward in January about the proposed regulations. We have
heard them repeated today: that we should await more comprehensive legislation by the Government and review the whole situation. Why should we wait? There can be only one reason: to turn the clock back and to limit or prohibit all research on embryos. I reject that completely. Modern science is advancing very rapidly, as we all agree.It may be that we shall have to amend the 1990 Act and its regulatory procedures from time to time. I do not object to that. It is necessary to review and amend legislation if it does not meet the needs of the day. A thorough review following the report of the Select Committee and the outcome of the appeal against the judgment will be justifiable and will in the usual way be a very thorough one in your Lordships' House. However, in the mean time a gap has been identified in our legislation and the only proper course of action for the Government and for this House is to fill that gap. I wholeheartedly support the Bill before us.
5.37 p.m.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, has said, this is a brief and narrowly drawn-up Bill with a specific purpose; namely, to prohibit human reproductive cloning.
So far as concerns the Liberal Democrats, in our 1999 policy paper we argued in favour of specific regulation prohibiting human reproductive cloning. During the debates on the regulations—in the early part of this year and on 22nd January—we called for specific legislation. The Government assured us that regulation of all forms of cloning was covered and indeed prohibited under the terms of the Human Fertilisation and Embryo Act and that there was no possibility that human cloning could go ahead.
Nevertheless, we repeated our call for specific legislation. We wanted to hear in the Queen's Speech that legislation on the matter was to be brought forward by the Government. Had that been so, we might not have found ourselves in the position that we are in today of having to push through very hurriedly and hastily a Bill to which we cannot give due consideration at this time. The guillotining of the Bill by both this House and the Commons is one that offends the standard of democracy of this House. It is one to which we as a party object.
Nevertheless, the Government have been caught out by the court judgment of 15th November. That judgment says that because fertilisation is not involved the process and products of cell nuclear replacement fall outside the regulatory framework of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act. Does that matter? Do we need regulation now? I repeat the phrase—they fall outside the regulation of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act.
The noble Lords, Lord Winston, Lord Walton of Detchant and Lord Turnberg, have all told us firmly, and we fully accept, that the science is still at an early stage and that we are a long way from experiments in cell nuclear replacement and the implantation of embryos working. We are nowhere ready to proceed with human reproductive cloning in that sense. As my
noble friend Lady Walmsley said, Antinori blows his own trumpet extremely loudly. The noble Baroness, Lady O'Neill of Bengarve, said that he would find far more difficulties with existing regulations in this country than he implies when he says that he is just waiting to come to Britain to perform cloning.Nevertheless, there are grounds for supporting the Government's hasty legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, warned us that if experiments proceed, the results could be horrific—partly because the science is still so new. It is vital for us to retain confidence in science if we want to proceed with therapeutic cloning. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said, we rightly have considerable faith in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. It is internationally regarded as exemplary in its regulation of the area. It has led to advancement of science in this country that has not been equalled elsewhere. If we want the public to have confidence in science, we must have confidence and pride in the regulatory framework. The problem posed by the 15th November judgment is that there is no regulatory framework for human reproductive cloning based on cell nuclear replacement.
As my noble friend Lady Walmsley said, we have considerable reservations about the Bill as drafted. For example, we are surprised that it does not accord the embryos created as a result of cell nuclear replacement the same protection as other embryos are accorded under the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990. Nevertheless, our view is that the Bill should pass, and we will back it. That does not imply that we are entirely happy with the procedures or believe that the Bill is sufficient, but we are encouraged by the fact that we know that the Select Committee will shortly be reporting, that much more comprehensive legislation is likely to follow and that loopholes in the Bill can be filled then. We support the Bill as a stop-gap measure. We on these Benches look forward to the Select Committee report and the opportunity that it will provide to consider much more comprehensive legislation in the area.
As I said, we object to the haste with which this short Bill has been pushed through. Had we been listened to earlier, it would not have been necessary. But we understand why the Government now feel obliged to legislate to plug the loophole that has appeared. For that reason, we shall support the Bill, but we see it as a stop-gap, and look forward to a much more considered piece of legislation in due course.
5.44 p.m.
Earl Howe: My Lords, for the second time in fewer than 12 months, we find ourselves debating questions that are as sombre as they are deep—questions about the engineering of human life and the nature of human personal identity. None of your Lordships can fail to be profoundly reflective and serious in the face of such matters. In January, when we considered stem cell research, a spirit of reflection and seriousness went hand in hand with a diametric polarisation of views. I venture to say that in this debate, unlike that one, opinion on at least the central issue is united.
The Minister, in his characteristically clear way, explained the content of the Bill and why the Government feel compelled to bring the measure before us in such rapid order. Emergency legislation is never welcome. By its nature, it can only be a consequence of some severe national threat: the Ximminent perils" referred to by tradition in the Peers' Writ of Summons. Emergency legislation is unwelcome in another sense. As my noble friend Lady Knight reminded us, we are all only too well aware of the risks of legislating in haste. In such circumstances, realism must be combined with caution. The nature and extent of the threat must be precisely defined. If there are alternatives to hasty law-making, they should first be pursued.
Having listened to the Minister, who has been kind enough to brief me privately, I am convinced that the Bill is wholly necessary, and that the Government had no option but to bring it to Parliament as rapidly as possible. There may be legitimate arguments, as we have heard today, about whether Ministers might have acted earlier and in less haste, and whether the scope of the Bill is sufficiently wide. But if we ask ourselves whether reproductive cloning is an appropriate matter for emergency legislation, there can be only one answer, for we are dealing with that most urgent matter of all: literally, a matter of life and death.
While it is a commonly agreed position that human reproductive cloning is an ethically abhorrent notion, I have read little analysis in print of the underlying philosophical arguments. It is important that those arguments do not go by default. For that reason, the House is indebted to the right reverent Prelate the Bishop of Oxford and the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, for articulating the Bill's ethical underpinning with such clarity. We must remind ourselves that there are those, quite apart from Professor Antinori, who seek to justify human reproductive cloning for infertile couples in the same terms as they might justify assisted conception by in vitro fertilisation.
A recent press release from the Human Cloning Organisation mentions,
- Xthe fundamental rights and liberties of a minority group"
- Xreproductive choice and freedom".
- Xthe logical equivalent of enforced sterilisation"
- Xthose that want nothing more than a genetically related family".
The language that attempts to justify reproductive cloning in such terms is one that treats children as commodities and subordinates the basic rights of such children to the demands and desires of childless couples who want to become parents.
Reproductive cloning has no claim whatever to any moral equivalence with in vitro fertilisation. That is not simply because of the scientific risks associated with the technique—significant as those are—but because reproductive cloning, if successful, would result in the creation of an individual deprived of two fundamental
rights that, I dare say, each of us has up to now taken for granted. Those are the right to have a genetic father and mother and the right to a genetic identity of one's own, separate from that of any adult already living. Those rights are—or should be—as inalienable as any in our constitution. They go to the heart of what we mean by human dignity and what it is to be an individual. A society that permitted reproductive cloning would be one that failed to value the uniqueness and equality of each of its members.Those are the reasons why we have a duty to support the objectives of the Bill and why I, for my part, intend to vote in favour of it. But not for a minute do I want to overlook the concerns expressed by a number of noble Lords about areas in which the Bill may be deficient.
The Minister needs to make it clear to the House why the Government are not proposing to address the recent High Court judgment in its totality by bringing forward regulation of all procedures involving cell nuclear replacement. He said that the judgment is currently the subject of appeal and that the conclusions of the committee chaired by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford should be awaited.
Those are arguments of pragmatism, but they beg the question of risk. It cannot by any standard be satisfactory that cell nuclear replacement as a process falls completely outside the scope of the current law. Whatever view we may individually take of the ethics of stem cell research involving CNR, whether we are for or against it, we must all be left profoundly disquieted that there is currently no means in law by which it can be regulated.
When we debated these issues in January this year, most of us believed that cell nuclear replacement had been regulated by the 1990 Act. That turns out not to be so. There were those, such as my noble and learned friend Lord Rawlinson, who in January told us in the clearest of terms that it was not so. While my noble and learned friend is entitled with some pride to say, XI told you so", I suspect that he will agree that it is not the most pressing aspect of the circumstances which now confront us. Much more important is whether there is a practical risk that some person in this country will undertake CNR without let or hindrance from the law.
The answer to that question seems once again to be a pragmatic one: that it would take a licensed research centre to engage in such work and that no licensed centre would want to jeopardise its status as a suitable practice by doing so. As arguments go, that does not seem to be a strong one.
If it is correct that the handling of human eggs outside the body is still subject to regulation under Clause 4 of the 1990 Act, it is clearly an important safeguard. I hope that the Minister can confirm that my understanding of that is right. However, I wonder whether in practical terms the bar on experimenting with unnucleated and renucleated eggs is as robust as all that. I should be grateful if in summing up the Minister could go into more detail on that issue.
We may find that we need to accept the Government's view of the matter and await the Court of Appeal judgment. If so, we need at the very least an assurance from the Minister that should the Court of Appeal confirm the recent judgment of the High Court, and the scope of the 1990 Act was thereby regarded as legally settled, legislation governing cell nuclear replacement and its use in stem cell research would be brought before Parliament as a high priority, taking into account the conclusions of the committee chaired by the right reverend Prelate.
I hope, too, that the Minister will be in a position to cover some of the real concerns voiced in the debate. It would be helpful if he could tell us what legislation, if any, is proposed in Scotland. The Explanatory Notes state that the Bill extends to Scotland, but I can see no explicit provision to that effect in the Bill. It would also be helpful if he could comment on the drafting of the Bill.
Extraordinary and abhorrent as the possibility may seem, it has been put to me and was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and my noble friend Lady Blatch, that it might be feasible to incubate a cloned human embryo in the body of an animal. Indeed, the 1990 Act appears to allow for the possibility of animal incubation. But if that is so, why does not the Bill echo that provision? And if the Bill before us is passed into law, what is to stop Professor Antinori, or anyone else, from using the freedom of this country's unregulated environment to conduct CNR experiments, deep freeze the results of such work and take those results abroad?
Given that the recent High Court judgment turned on the question of what was or was not an embryo for the purposes of the 1990 Act, I find it odd, to say the least, that the Bill contains no definition of the word Xembryo". The same can be said of the word Xfertilisation". No doubt the Minister will say that the purpose of the legislation is clear, but such semantic looseness has got the Government into their recent trouble. We do not want a repeat of that. Like the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, I see strong arguments for trying to close any such loopholes which we can now identify.
In the context of this Second Reading debate, we must return to the central point at issue. Is what the Bill sets out to do worthy of our support? I am in no doubt that it is. There are times when the official Opposition have a duty to take the Government to task for their perceived omissions, for their wrong assurances, for ignoring warnings and for not acting sooner. This is not one of those times. It is a time for Parliament to speak with one voice; to make a clear statement about our commonly held values; and to forestall a real and imminent threat. From these Benches, I am pleased to offer my support to the Government for the proposals now before us.
5.56 p.m.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, our debate has been of high quality and the contributions have ranged far and wide across the ethical and practical
dimension of cloning. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that the debate reflected the seriousness of the matters before us today. Furthermore, I thought that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans made some thoughtful comments about the dimensions in which we are discussing the matter.As regards therapeutic cloning, I suspect that we are unlikely ever to come to unanimity of view. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that dialogue is most important in those matters. As my noble friend Lady Lockwood said, what unites all noble Lords is an abhorrence of human reproductive cloning and a desire for us all to see effective regulation in place.
In referring to emergency legislation, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that it was never welcomed but he believed that it was justified in this case. His critique of the ethics of human reproductive cloning were both helpful and apposite.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Blatch and Lady Knight, criticised the process by which we have reached today's situation. I believe that since 1997 there has been a thorough debate of many of the issues. There was the original report from the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology; the public consultation by the HFEA and the Human Genetics Advisory Commission, which led to their recommendations and report, Cloning Issues in Reproduction, Science and Medicine—
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