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Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will he concede that in these matters progress is being made quickly over a large area, so that a debate four or five years ago may not necessarily have been sufficient to deal with all the problems?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, perhaps I may turn to that matter in a moment because I was describing two steps in an extensive process. Those reports were followed by a thorough examination of the matter by the Chief Medical Officer's expert group. That paved the way for the regulations which were put before the House at the beginning of the year. I believe that those debates—a seven-hour debate in your Lordships' House and a three-day debate in the House of Commons—allowed many views to be aired and allowed the subject to be thoroughly discussed.
The noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, was critical of the advice I gave to the House in January in relation to the 1990 Act and the comments I made as regards human cloning. I say to the noble Baroness that what I said then was based on legal advice given to the Government. I believe that it was appropriate to follow that advice.
The noble Baroness, Lady Knight, suggested that the Government had acted in haste in bringing emergency legislation before your Lordships' House this afternoon and that perhaps we should have been a little more relaxed about excitable Italians who make what may appear to be far-fetched claims. I tend to agree with the noble Baroness about the particular Italian to whom she refers, but ultimately I do not
believe that we can take that risk. The announcement yesterday in the United States surely reinforces the need to take action urgently.My noble friend Lord Brennan gave five reasons for taking action. In particular I agree with his comments about the need to restore public confidence in science, the safety issues involved in human reproductive cloning and the ethics that follow from that. Perhaps on the same theme, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, suggested that the Government could have awaited the report of the Select Committee of the House of Lords. I believe that in an ideal world it would have been better to await that report and, in the light of it, bring legislation before your Lordships' House, if that was required. But the Government had to make a judgment, and I believe that they were right to decide that because of the specific threat that this procedure might be carried out in this country, legislation should be brought forward urgently.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, welcomed the proposal and said that it would reassure those who were concerned about human cloning. In particular, she dealt with the Xslippery slope" argument which many noble Lords had raised in the debate on the regulations in January. The noble Baroness also made the very important point that if we dealt with the specific issue of human reproductive cloning, it would allow us time to concentrate on therapeutic cloning.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford informed the House that the Select Committee's report would be published very soon. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, it is the intention of the Government to listen very carefully to the recommendations of that report. If, as a result, it is apparent that further legislation in this area is needed, the Government will bring it before Parliament. But I accept that it is important to have sufficient time to consider carefully the results and recommendations of that report, and that is what we shall seek to do.
My noble friend Lord Winston referred to some of the practical problems of cell nuclear replacement; for example, the abnormalities of animals involved in the cloning process, the impairment of genetic imprinting and the fact that other genes are not expressed normally in those animals. Those were very telling remarks about some of the risks involved. That is another reason why we believe it right to bring legislation before your Lordships' House this afternoon. My noble friend referred to my remarks about the potential of therapeutic cloning. The noble Lord, Lord Rix, very much reinforced the point that I made. I accept that we must be cautious about the time when those benefits may emerge. I also accept the strictures of my noble friend that at this stage none of us can say for certain what will be the impact of this research. But my noble friend said that we should not ban the pursuit of knowledge and I believe that to be very important.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, made a number of points. He would urge the House to prohibit human cloning of all kinds until the Select Committee reports and, if necessary, legislation is subsequently brought
before the House. I believe that there is a different order of consideration. Surely, the noble Lord, Lord Walton, and my noble friend Lord Turnberg put the point correctly: the difference is that this House and the other place have indicated time and again that they oppose human reproductive cloning, but last January this Chamber voted by a large majority to allow therapeutic cloning. I believe that that indicates that there is a different order of consideration. If, as a result of the legal process, such therapeutic cloning is unregulated, the Government will return to Parliament.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Does the noble Lord concede that during that debate noble Lords were assured: first, that the parent legislation was the 1990 Act and, therefore, the measures were pre-authorised and all they were doing was passing secondary legislation; secondly, that the matter would be regulated as a result of that; and, thirdly, that the whole issue of regulation was all right and that cloning was, in fact, illegal? Does the Minister agree that the vote was taken in the context of all those assurances by the Government which have since been declared by the High Court not to be regular?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the Government wish and seek to have therapeutic cloning regulated. We are in the middle of a legal case and are appealing against the judgment of 15th November. If at the end of that legal process the Government lose their case and therapeutic cloning remains unregulated, we shall seek to bring before the House further legislation to ensure that it is regulated.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it will not be a question of bringing forward legislation to make sure that it is regulated. The matter must come before Parliament by way of primary legislation to be approved as a technique, after which it will be regulated.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I do not believe that anything I have said is in disagreement with the comments of the noble Baroness. It would require primary legislation and it would need to be regulated.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. For the understanding of people outside this House, will the Minister also confirm that as soon as the court case began in January the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority said that until the whole legal process was completed—it could go as far as your Lordships' House and the Law Lords and on to the European Court—no licences would be issued?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I make two comments in response. First, it is certainly my impression that the HFEA said that pending the court case no applications involving therapeutic cloning would be entertained. Secondly, as of 15th November
the HFEA lost competence in that regard. The noble Lord is absolutely right. That was why I said it was the intention of the Government that, at the end of the legal process, if therapeutic cloning was found to be unregulated, the Government would seek to bring legislation before your Lordships' House to put it right.There was some debate about the use of terminology, in particular the word Xembryo". I believe that in this respect the judgment of Mr Justice Crane is apposite:
- Xit is conceded, in my view correctly, that the organism produced by [cell nuclear replacement] is naturally described as an 'embryo', at least when the two-cell stage is reached. That is consistent with the expert evidence before the court".
The noble Lords, Lord Walton and Lord Patel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, paid tribute to the work of the HFEA. I very much concur with their comments. The authority has earned an international reputation and we can be proud of the way in which, since 1990, it has ensured that a professional and well-regulated process has been put in place.
Perhaps I may turn to an issue which has been raised again; namely, whether embryonic stem cells ultimately will produce more effective results than adult stem cells. I have listened with great care to the comments that have been made by many noble Lords in the course of the debate. The evidence available so far from the greater body of science suggests that work should continue on both fronts. At this stage, we do not know the outcome of either area of research and thus we ought to ensure that the research covers them both. The chairman of the Royal Society, Professor Richard Gardner, recently stated that:
- XAlthough recent developments in the study of adult stem cells are very exciting, the Royal Society does not believe that this area of research represents a scientific alternative to embryonic stem cell research. Both research areas need to be pursued because it is likely that each will yield distinctive therapeutic benefits. Indeed, research in one area may help work in the other. We cannot predict which area will yield the first or best therapies".
A number of comments were made as regards the international and the European position. Although claims have been made that there is consistency here, the fact is that different countries have taken wholly different approaches to the matter. In the United States, President Bush has announced a limited relaxation on federal funding in respect of embryonic stem cell research using cell lines obtained before August 2001. It is true that a Bill to ban all cloning gained early support, but I understand that at the moment the legislation has been dropped from the timetable in the Senate in the light of events post 11th September. In some other countries, embryo research is subject to legislation, while in others no legislation has been put in place. That is the case in Belgium and the Netherlands, where nevertheless embryo research is carried out. With regard to European action,
following the establishment of the European Parliament's temporary committee on genetics, perhaps I may respond to comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, by saying that the European Commission has made it clear that the control of embryology is a matter for national law and national parliaments. However, on the question of human reproductive cloning, I can tell the House that the Government will support international efforts to establish a universal ban on such cloning.
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