Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, can the Minister also confirm to noble Lords that, 10 days ago, the European Parliament passed by majority vote a resolution to prevent the provision of any funding for any scientist working in the Community who uses therapeutic as well as reproductive cloning techniques?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am not aware of the exact terms of the relevant motion, but ultimately that vote would not affect this country's competence in the area. Furthermore, it would not affect the Government's ability to fund research efforts. The substantive point I seek to make is that, other than the hoped-for growing international consensus in relation to human reproductive cloning, major differences exist between countries as to how they approach these matters.
A number of comments have been made on the subject of implantation in animals. Fertilised embryos are fully governed by the 1990 Act which places an explicit ban on placing human embryos in any kind of animal. I understand that no suggestion has been put forward in any of the studies involving animals that it is intended to carry out reproductive cloning in such a way, or that it would work, if tried. But of course this is a matter to which the Government will return in the light both of the appeal and of the recommendations of the Select Committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked about Recommendation 6 in the Donaldson report, which states that the mixing of human adult cells with the live eggs of any animal species should not be permitted. In their response to the Donaldson report, the Government agreed with that recommendation and stated that they would introduce legislation as soon as parliamentary time allowed. That remains the position in relation to the matter. In the mean time, we have called on those bodies funding the research to make it clear that they will not fund or support research involving the creation of such hybrids.
Questions were raised as regards the position of the women described in the Bill. The legislation makes it clear that the penalty applies to a person who places an embryo in a woman. That does not penalise the woman, although, as with other offences, the woman may be liable under the general rules of criminal law if she is an active or knowing participant.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene. Let us take the case of a woman who is desperate to have a child and so agrees to proceed with such an illicit
procedure. In those circumstances, surely if subsequently she were to reconsider her actions, it would quite wrong to criminalise her. According to the penalties set out in the Bill, such a woman could face up to 10 years in prison or a fine or both. Furthermore, she might be pushed into the hands of a backstreet abortionist because I presume that she would not wish to give reasons why she wished to seek a termination of the pregnancy.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, it is difficult to respond to the Xwhat if" scenario painted by the noble Lord. However, I should say that the construction of the Bill is similar to that of the Act. I understand that no prosecutions have taken place under that Act of any women who have been involved in activities listed as criminal under the Act. But clearly the circumstances under which the events took place would strongly influence any decision as regards prosecution.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, also asked about human rights. A long line of authorities from Strasbourg to the European Court of Human Rights has never afforded a foetus legal rights in order to give it the same legal status as a child or adult. Consequently, Article 2 has not been held to apply, let alone to be breached, in the case of a foetus or embryo.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked about the position in regard to Scotland, as did the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I can confirm that the Bill will extend to the whole of the United Kingdom. It is the convention that Westminster Bills extend to Scotland unless it is made explicit in a Bill that it does not do so. For some reason that escapes me, the converse is true for Northern Ireland.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene once more. The Bill specifies that the Director of Public Prosecutions will bring forward cases in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and will be responsible for determining whether a prosecution should be pursued. Can the Minister tell the House whether in Scotland the Lord Advocate would undertake those tasks? Who would bring forward such prosecutions? That information is not specified on the face of the Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, again, that is consistent with all legislation as well as being consistent with the 1990 Act. Prosecutions in Scotland would be brought forward in the normal manner for criminal cases.
Perhaps I may turn to a number of questions raised in regard to definitions. I should like to make a general point. Terms such as Xfertilisation" and Xembryo" are used extensively in legislation. The purpose of that is clear and I caution the House against trying to secure too tight a definition of the terminology. In this unfolding and fast developing field, the stronger the attempts to tighten the definitions, the easier it is to build future loopholes into the legislation. That should
explain the terminology that has been used and which we have tried to make as consistent as possible with the original 1990 Act.The noble Baroness, Lady O'Neill, referred to the HFEA being able to regulate the use of eggs. My understanding is that the HFEA's power is limited and applies to the storage of eggs and their use to create embryos by fertilisation. My advice is that the 1990 Act does not govern the use of fresh eggs, which can be used to create a cloned embryo. So that means that the HFEA would not be able to prevent cloning by regulating the use of eggs in this way.
Turning to a central point of the arguments put before your Lordships' House today, this is not a comprehensive Bill; it makes no claim to be such. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, it is a stop-gap Bill designed to deal with the most serious issue that arises from the judgment of 15th November. I believe that it is a proportionate response. I wish again to give an absolute assurance to your Lordships. A number of issues have been raised which, in the light of the current judgment, appear to be outwith regulation. We shall return to those matters at the end of the legal process and in the light of the House of Lords Select Committee report. If, ultimately, it appears necessary to bring further legislation before Parliament, we shall not hesitate to do so.
The Billurgent as it isis a proportionate response to the issues we face following the judgment. I hope that your Lordships will support the Bill.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord Brougham and Vaux) in the Chair.]
Clause 3 [Approval of increase in powers of European Parliament]:
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I oppose the proposition that Clause 3 stand part of the Bill. I do so because this is an opportunity for a debate on the increasing powers of the European Parliament. The Treaty of Nice seeks to increase a number of powers in a number of respectsfor example, through co-decision and the appointment of the President of the Commission.
Section 6 of the European Assembly Elections Act 1978 states:
The 1978 Act was introduced in an effort to facilitate and continue the Lib-Lab pact. The Labour government were at that time under growing difficulties and the then Leader of the House, Michael Footwho was then a euroscepticintroduced the Bill for direct election because he wanted to keep that pact going, and with it the Labour government.
Many people, including myself, were very much opposed to giving the European Assembly, as it then was, the additional status of being directly elected. We believed that that would enhance its status and lead to an expansion of its powers and its role at the expense of national parliaments. So it has proved, as we very well know. The Assembly was promoted to a parliament and its powers have been greatly expandedespecially through co-decisionand national parliaments have become progressively less powerful and, in many respects, quite impotent.
Section 6 of the 1978 Act was included to assuage the worries of people like myself who feared that the increase of powers to the European Parliament would weaken Westminster. Unfortunately, we were right. Section 6 of the Act has not done what it was intended to do; it has not given the protection to Westminster that was claimed for it in 1978.
Westminsterespecially the House of Commons under successive governmentsis to blame for handing over powers which, after all, were held in trust from the people. They have been handed over to institutions not entirely elected by and responsible to the British electorate. Parliament fought a war to wrest supremacy from an English monarch, but it is now, in many respects, subordinate to and under the cosh of institutions which are not of its construction and not in keeping with its history, heritage and experience.
While it is true that the back-stop of the European Communities Act 1972 remains in place, it is becoming increasingly irrelevant as Parliament relinquishes its powers and accepts new constitutional arrangements which undermine those built up by this country over the centuries. The Prime Ministerwhose knowledge of history seems to be as faulty as his spelling of Xtomorrow"judging by his speech to the European Research Institute last Friday, is hell-bent on pushing for even greater involvement by Britain in a closely integrated European entity. This can only result in a further erosion of power and decision-making from Parliament to the institutions of the European Union.
Indeed, even as we are discussing this clause, the House of Commons is about to divest itself of the power to agree EU third pillar justice and home affairs matters through primary legislation by approving Clause 109 of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Bill. This allows measures, under the third pillar, to be
implemented by statutory instrument. Also, of course, the Government have plans to reduce the powers of this House to amend statutory instruments. Whether such plans will ever be implemented, I do not know.As the Government admitted to the House of Commons Select Committee on Home Affairs, Clause 109 can be used regardless of whether or not such measures have a relevance to the fight against terrorism. In other words, it goes much wider than the terrorism Bill, as it is known. This is in spite of the fact that the House of Commons Select Committee recommended that the provision should be confined to measures combating terrorism. It is virtually certain that the Government will force this clause through on the guillotine without proper consideration and discussion. That is completely wrong.
It is wrong to misuse emergency powers in this way, especially as it is likely that, in due time, we will find that the European Parliament has gained power over our laws and justice system while Westminster has lost it and been pushed to the sidelines, yet again, in another important area of policy making.
I know that this place has a great deal of business to transact today, but I make no apology for raising this issue. It is vital and fundamental to the continued sovereignty and supremacy of the House of Commons and of Parliament. I oppose the Question, That Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: I strongly support the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, but my concern extends also to terrorism. I feel a deep concern that the European Union has the power, by setting up common strategies and decisions, to move to action within that framework which requires only qualified majority votingand we are talking about the disposal of intelligence.
I raised the matter at some length recently and do not propose to waste the Committee's time by repeating what I said thensave to say that I have still received no reply from the Minister to my earlier questions. I cannot understand how the Government can seriously consider putting it in the power of an amateur, leaky organisation like Europol to set itself up as a centre of intelligence activity over terrorism.
There are excellent bilateral arrangements in this area between Britain and many other countries. There are excellent arrangements which have worked for NATO. There is no need to give this organisation powers, as the Government are apparently prepared to do, in the way described by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, without building in any kind of restraint or brake that would allow us to change situations of that sort once we perceivedas we soon shallthe inherent dangers.
I cannot say too often that human intelligence is a very delicate thing. It simply does not work if it is put into a pool and handled by people who do not understand how to handle it and who also have no
particular interest in protecting the sources. This is an extremely important issue which has been swept completely under the carpet by the Government.
Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |