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Lord Watson of Richmond: I confess to a sense of disappointment because, as some noble Lords know, my approach to the European Union is that by pooling sovereignty, in effect, we increase sovereignty. Therefore, I had hoped that the Treaty of Nice would be more ambitious than it is. In some ways it is a rather disappointing treaty to those who believe that
European integration and co-operation should take a decisive rather than a timid step forward. So I am disappointed.The fact is that the treaty is here, and it is a necessary treaty if we are not to lose the pace of enlargement. Earlier today I read the report on the institutional implications of enlargement, which was produced in 1999 by the so-called three wise men, one of whom is a Member of this House, the noble Lord, Lord Simon. They clearly had ambitions for the Treaty of Nice that would have been far more radical, and had they occurred there may have been a case for a referendum. We on these Benches were the first political party in the United Kingdom to make a case for a referendum on the European single currency, which is now the policy of Her Majesty's Government. We also argued for a referendum on the Treaty of Maastricht because we believe that that treaty made fundamental changes; for example, the introduction of the concept of European citizenship which had constitutional implications. I record with some disappointment that the Treaty of Nice does not justify that.
To talk about the Irish referendum is somewhat misleading because the Irish constitution requires referendums in the case of international treaties. We do not have that provision and so we are not bound by that. It is hard to see why that should be applied in this case.
I suspect that a call for a referendum is motivated by other matters. I remind the House of what the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, said on the previous day in Committee on this Bill: that he hates the European Union and everything that comes out of it. If one hates the European Union and everything that comes out of it, and if one sees the European Union as a glorified Gestapo—the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, referred to living under the cosh of the European institutions—nothing less than a referendum on any proposal for any increase in European co-operation would be fully justified. As that is nonsense, we should have no problem in rejecting this amendment.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Perhaps it would be appropriate if I spoke after the interesting words of the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Richmond.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I do not necessarily have to be brief. We are in Committee. There is at least five minutes before any of us expects supper.
When the noble Lord, Lord Watson, takes me to task for saying that I hate the European Union and everything that flows forth from Brussels, I should put those comments in the context in which I made them. I was dealing with the word XEurophobic", and how some of us are accused of it when in fact we are phobic about, or we hate the European Union and everything that comes forth from Brussels; not the continent of European nations which we love. I used the word Xhate" because the word Xphobic" has an irrational note to it, whereas the phrase Xintensely dislike" or the word Xhate" are entirely rational. That is why I used
the word Xhate". However, it would not be fair to associate my remarks with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Blackwell, or the Conservative Party generally.Having put that matter to rest, perhaps, in support of the amendment of my noble friend, I can express the hope that no noble Lord will say that the British people have already been asked about our membership of the European Union because we voted to stay in the European Common Market in 1975. There has never been a referendum in this country on our membership of the European Union. There was a referendum in 1975, but the Prime Minister of the day, Mr Harold Wilson, put a letter through every letterbox in the land saying that there was a threat to employment in Britain from the movement in the Common Market towards an economic and monetary union which could have forced us to accept fixed exchange rates for the pound and restricting industrial growth, so putting jobs at risk. He went on to say that that threat had been removed.
Of course it was not removed. As we know, it returned to bite later, and so far we are just avoiding it. But the position of the Government on our membership of the single currency is not clear at all. The Prime Minister of the day ensured every household in the land that there was no loss of sovereignty involved in voting to stay in the free trade area, the Common Market, in 1975. Since then we have seen the Single European Act 1985 that gave all our industries, all our commerce and our environment to the qualified majority vote in Brussels.
Next came Maastricht in 1992 which was called the Treaty on European Union. There can be no doubt about that. As noble Lords know, it introduced economic and monetary union and was a treaty on European union. That was its name. In 1997 we had Amsterdam with many safeguards over national sovereignty and with many matters of national sovereignty being passed to the qualified majority voting in Brussels. Now we have Nice.
It is reasonable to suggest that we should finally have a referendum on our membership of the European Union. If the amendment of my noble friend were accepted, I believe that it would require an explanation to the British people of exactly where we are. You could not have an amendment on Nice alone; you would have to tell the British people what lies behind Nice, which they have never been told. They would be voting on Nice as it is added to the Treaty on European Union and the treaty establishing the European Community, loosely known as the Treaties of Rome.
If they refuse this amendment, I do not believe that it is possible, or honourable, for the Government to say that they want a good debate on the future of the European Union and our place in it.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: In light of what the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has said about there being five minutes until supper, it may be convenient for the Committee if I clarify the position. It has been agreed
between the usual channels that we shall continue this debate without interruption until the Committee stage is completed; we shall then take the two orders and continue, without an adjournment during pleasure, to the Committee stage of the Human Reproductive Cloning Bill.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Of course, I accept that. I find it slightly inconvenient. This morning I took the trouble to visit the Government Whips' Office, where I was assured that we would be given the usual hour for supper. It is quite inconvenient not to have it.
7.30 p.m.
Lord Harrison: When I was a Member of the European Parliament, the most dispiriting words that I ever heard when someone rose to speak were: XBrevamente", XBrievement" or XMay I speak briefly". However, I shall try to do that myself tonight. First, I ask Members opposite—especially the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell—why at the time of the Single European Act and, indeed, the Maastricht Treaty our electorate was not given the opportunity to vote in a referendum. Secondly, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, and others who support him, whether he considers that earlier this year the most important referendum of all took place; namely, a general election in which not only the party that won the election but a second major party in the United Kingdom spoke vociferously for the Nice Treaty and for the Nice Treaty being ratified under the new government. I believe that the Committee would welcome clear, unambiguous answers to those two questions.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I shall answer the noble Lord. When the Labour Government forced through the Amsterdam treaty, it was one of 177 commitments in the Labour manifesto. The Nice Treaty may have been mentioned in the Labour manifesto but, again, it was one of the best part of 200 commitments in that manifesto. Let us not forget that only 59 per cent of the population turned out to vote, and I believe that only a minority, not a majority, voted for the party opposite. Therefore, to pretend that the general election was in any way a ringing public endorsement of the Treaty of Nice or, indeed, of the Treaty of Rome is a little wide of the mark.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: During recent months we have heard a great deal from Ministers about the need to reconnect—I believe that that is the word that is currently popular in relation to Europe—with voters in the European Union on European Union matters. If that is really the case, I do not understand how the Government can avoid supporting the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Blackwell or, indeed, that in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, which we shall debate later this evening. My belief is that these two amendments are complementary. They are the only amendments that we have discussed so far in our three days of the Committee stage which are intended to make the Nice
Treaty more intelligible to the people of this country and to give them any chance of having a say in what the Government are doing in their name.I agree that that is an heroic task. We have heard time and again how incomprehensible and obscure this treaty is. In that context, I was interested to see that even the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, was using not an official text—I do not believe that there is an official integrated text on the Maastricht Treaty—but the very useful volume produced by the British Management Data Foundation. Without that, I do not believe we should have been able to have a Committee stage or a sensible debate about the treaty. Therefore, I believe that those responsible for that volume are due a vote of thanks from this House. There are two volumes, but I gather that the first was deemed to be too dangerous for general circulation because it analysed the treaty.
If Ministers and those inside Westminster must rely on an independent body to produce a comprehensible version of the Treaty of Nice, I believe that further clarification should be given so that people outside Westminster can understand it. Of course, my noble friend Lord Pearson is quite right. The mere mention of the Nice Treaty and the manifesto which the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, prayed in aid cannot possibly be conceived of as a ringing endorsement of everything that was contained in this volume. That really will not wash.
In our debates, the Xshorthand" reference to the Nice treaty being all about enlargement—no Nice treaty; no enlargement—has been shown to be a total sham. I believe that it has been said that approximately 5 per cent of the total number of articles in the Nice Treaty are about enlargement. The remainder are about giving away more powers to the Commission or to the corporate bureaucratic complex of the EU. As my noble friend Lord Blackwell pointed out, we are giving away more power to the Commission in 39 areas—some of them very important. The Commission may have been reformed but we do not know by how much. But, of course, the Government believe that it is a good idea to give away those powers; otherwise, presumably, they would have opposed the Nice Treaty, which gives away the powers. Everyone has admitted to and agreed that, and the Government want more of it.
However, if we do not particularly warm to the idea of the Commission being given those powers, we can at least be thankful for the existence of the President of the European Commission, Signor Prodi. He is quite clear. He has said, XWe want more tax harmonisation; that is what Europe is about. We want complete tax harmonisation. Yes, the European rapid reaction force is in fact an army. And, yes, our aim is European political union". I sometimes believe that if Mr Prodi did not exist, we should have had to invent him.
Therefore, if the Government are serious in saying that they want to get the European Union and the EU institutions closer to the people, surely my noble friend's amendment provides the opportunity for them to do just that. The amendment in the name of the
noble Lord, Lord Phillips—I know that we are not debating it now but I believe that it is important to link them together—will explain what the Nice Treaty is all about. As my noble friend Lord Pearson correctly pointed out, the Nice Treaty cannot be explained in isolation. It is simply an amendment of the previous European Union treaties. Therefore, any explanation of what Nice is about must, by definition, include the Amsterdam Treaty, the Maastricht Treaty and the treaty on the Single European Act.Therefore, after a period of debate, when that has all been clarified in the words of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, which refers to clarity, plain English and the term Ximpartial", which, I agree, is terribly important, surely we should then call a referendum in order to obtain the agreement of the British people to what this Government propose to give away in their name. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was absolutely right when, in speaking to his own amendment earlier, he said that elected governments have only a mandate. Powers are given in trust to the elected government of the day. They are only lent; they do not belong to a government to dispose of as they will. If the Government propose to transfer ever more powers from their elected Members at Westminster, surely the voters should confirm that, indeed, they want to give those extra powers away.
Surely there must come a time when we come clean about the creeping and ever-increasing incremental constitutional changes that we have foisted on the British public through the succession of European treaties. As has been pointed out this evening, we have not had a vote on our membership of the European Union. We have had a vote on whether we want to stay in the Common Market, but that is a different matter.
We are constantly being put to the old salami-slicing technique. XWhy strain at this gnat of the Nice Treaty", we are asked, Xwhen you have swallowed the camel of previous treaties?". Of course, some of us did not want to swallow the camel of previous treaties but we were never asked. We never had a referendum. However, I believe that a moment must come when the people are asked: XDo you want to continue with this handover of powers?". I believe that that moment is now, and I support my noble friend's amendment.
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