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Lord Stoddart of Swindon: The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, should indeed be congratulated on bringing this issue before the Committee. He is absolutely right, there are so many people who say, XI do not know anything about the Common Market. No one explains it to me. No one tells me what it is all about". When you say, XRead the newspapers, from the Sun to The Times to the Telegraph", they say, XI want something that is unbiased". The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, proposes that the Government should send out a leaflet in popular form, in writing, in plain English and impartial. That is exactly what people want and that is what they should have.
There is however a difficulty about impartiality. I am not sure that I trust the Government to be impartial. I shall tell the noble Lord why I do not trust the Government to be impartial. I keep lots of little pamphlets and books, and I have kept one entitled Britain's New Deal in Europe. It was issued to every household during the 1975 referendum by Her Majesty's Government. It was said to be—or was supposed to be—impartial. Anyone reading it would not agree that it was impartial.
If there is to be a pamphlet or leaflet such as the one proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—and I shall support his amendment if he puts it to a vote today—I should like him to think between now and Report stage about how we can have someone other than the Government draft an impartial leaflet. The Electoral Commission or other commissions could draft it so that it was truly impartial. If the Government said, XLord Stoddart, will you come along and help us to draft it?", then of course it would be impartial—I accept that—but they are unlikely to do so.
Before Report stage, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, will think about an amendment so that someone other than the Government drafts the information for the general public.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. It seeks that every household in the United Kingdom shall be informed about the constitutional and governmental effects of the Treaty of Nice. Presumably the noble Lord means they should be not only informed about the Treaty of Nice but about how the Treaty of Nice amends all the other European treaties. If so, the communication will describe the new deal that we have in Europe now. It will tell the citizens of this country—in plain language and impartially—where we have got to in Europe; where we stand in Europe; what we have given away; where we are going; whether we want to go any further.
The Treaty of Nice does not mean anything unless it is referred back to the other treaties it amends. I do not know whether the noble Lord will press this amendment to a vote today, but, if he does not, it may be sensible to make an alteration to the amendment to
make clear that the people of this country need to be informed about the whole European picture. If he does press it to a vote, I shall certainly support him. It will give me enormous pleasure to see the Government Benches filing into the voting Lobbies to support more obfuscation in Europe.
Lord Howell of Guildford: We on these Benches have considerable sympathy with both the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and the arguments he brought forward on earlier amendments. As I think everyone recognises, regardless of party, the European Union has become an immensely complicated structure, well beyond the capacity of any single human mind to grasp in all its ramifications. Indeed, it is more than a cathedral, as my noble friend Lord Brooke so adequately put it.
The European Union needs not only to be explained more simply but to be simpler. If it was simpler it would be stronger; if it was stronger it would no longer be suffering from a haemorrhage of democratic trust and faith and might even give the policy makers in Europe the realisation that they should take things at a more careful pace. They have spent 40 years achieving amazing results; now they want to rush ahead in the next five years to give us an army, money, a constitution, a single judicial area, vast enlargement and so on. They have many admirable objectives, but everyone knows that there has already been created enormous bureaucratic and legislative indigestion.
The need now is for a simpler Europe explained in simpler ways. Whether a genius can be found to utter the impartial phrases that would put the matter seriously before people, and whether we would be able to get away from the polarised nonsense that seems to affect a number of the speeches of the noble Baroness's Cabinet colleagues who have simply not grasped what the real debate on Europe is about, I do not know. It would be a high hope.
However, this has the makings of being a very sensible amendment. I do not know whether the noble Lord will seek to press it further today but, whether he does or not, it should be supported by those who want to see a more sensible Europe than the one we have today.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: We are all agreed about the need for information on the Treaty of Nice and the associated issues. That is why the Government published the White Paper, Reform for Enlargement, in February 2000, before the start of the IGC which led to the Nice Treaty. That White Paper set out in clear and simple English the issues involved and what the Government's approach was intended to be.
At least two noble Lords have pointed out that there are one or two problems with the noble Lord's amendment. He exhorts us to publish such a document in plain English and popular form and to be impartial. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, pointed out in his inimical way, what I think of as being impartial and what he thinks of as being impartial are likely to be two rather different things.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said that he supported the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, but then went on to say that he did not really if it was going to be written by the Government. The noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Brooke, said that he supported the amendment, but he did not really because it was going to concern only the Treaty of Nice. The amendment is as it is written down, not as noble Lords would like it to be written down.
The Government have regularly held debates on the issues involved. They have provided information to Parliament and to the public on the outcome of Nice. Parliament has received a detailed explanatory memorandum to accompany its consideration of the Bill, which has spelt out the issues; and the British public have been able to secure a host of information on Nice and the EU through the Foreign Office website, www.fco.gov.UK/EU/Nice, which provides information on enlargement of the EU, the latest FCO press statements on the EU and the issues surrounding Britain's membership inter alia.
The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, exhorted us Xnot to rest on tradition". I do not think of using websites or the series of debates held by my right honourable friend Mr Hain and his predecessor as resting on tradition. It is traditional to send out a leaflet on an unsolicited basis to every household in the country. That is the traditional way of doing things. The Government have tried to be much more innovative about the way in which we have approached this issue.
We have, indeed, published a short leaflet for the general public which sets out the issues. I believe that it does so in a clear and impartial way and in a way that is referred to in the referendum. But I am willing to bet that quite a few Members of the Committee would not think that it was clear and impartial, given some of the remarks that have been made.
I believe that due credit should be given to my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe, who has undertaken a major tour of British towns and cities. He has set out the issues relating to EU membership very much in the broader sense mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, and not just in respect of Nice. He has been talking to businesses, in open fora, on local media and, importantly, to students and in schools.
I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, that I rather doubt whether young people at school are going to fall upon a leaflet that comes through their front door in anything like the way in which they will respond to something on a website or which is being debated in their schools. That is the way to get people to debate these issues, rather than just by putting something through a letterbox on to a doormat, which goes straight into a waste-paper basket. It is the attempt to provoke debate, in the way the Government have undertaken to do, that will see this issue through.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I am obliged to the Minister for giving way. She mentioned that the
Minister for Europe has been to schools and colleges to put the Government's point of view. But this is a highly political matter. It is incumbent on the educational establishments to see that there is political balance. Does the Minister for Europe remind schools that they should insist on political balance? And how is that achieved?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: It is up to the schools who they invite into them. I do not think that my right honourable friend is forcing himself on anyone. If people wish to hear politicians from any party, they are as entitled to hear members of the elected government of the day as they are to hear the opposition.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Will my noble friend give way? I really must stop calling her Xmy noble friend". She is Xthe Minister" to me these days. Is she aware that it is not a question of my forcing myself on schools. The difficulty that some of us find is in obtaining entry to schools. They resist us on the basis that this is a political matter. When we say, XBut you've just had Mr Hain to speak", they say, XAh, he's a Minister. That's different". In our book, it is not different. He is putting one point of view, and we want to be able to put another point of view.
If the Minister wants to help, she will persuade the Secretary of State for Education to remind educational establishments that they should produce balance and ensure that a point of view other than that of the Government on European issues is put to schools.
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