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Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, perhaps before the noble Lord sits down he could take two points. First, the rearrangement does not make navigation through a complicated Bill any easier for newcomers. Secondly—and I hesitate to put the point too clearly—not everyone who does not sit on Front Benches is necessarily enchanted by decisions reached through the usual channels.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I have been where the noble Lord is now and I know exactly how he feels. I am still learning the procedures of the House and getting used to speakers' lists takes quite a while. If it is convenient to the House, I will arrange for an explanation by the broad subject to be placed in the office. The subject headings are terrorist property; freezing orders; disclosure of information; race and religion; immigration and asylum, which is detention; miscellaneous, which is a JHA matter and is most important; Terrorism Act 2000; weapons of mass destruction; security of pathogens and toxins, which is the laboratories; security of the nuclear industry; aviation security; police powers; retention of communications data; and bribery and corruption.

I shall arrange for that list to be split so that people can see which subjects are intended to be taken on each of the four days in Committee.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Christmas Day (Trading) Bill [HL]

3.11 p.m.

Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Unless, therefore, any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.

Moved, That the order of commitment be discharged.—(Lord Davies of Coity.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill

3.12 p.m.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill is needed because of what happened in the United States on 11th September. Thousands of people were murdered in cold blood: office workers;

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airline crews and passengers; fire and police officers; men, women and children; and people from many nationalities, ethnic backgrounds and creeds. It is generally accepted that as we consider the Bill through its stages we should remember the terrible events of that day which gave rise to it.

Since those atrocities, the Government have considered whether our legal framework and security against acts of terrorism are sufficient. We have concluded that wholesale revision of our laws is not necessary. That is also the view of the law enforcement agencies. But because of what happened on 11th September, we need to protect ourselves in new ways. As I have said previously in this House, on that day the terrorists rewrote their rule book. We therefore need to do the same.

That means enhancing our existing anti-terrorism legislation. It means ensuring that security—for example, at airports—reflects the new threats that we face. It means recognising that international terrorists are well financed and willing to use weapons of mass destruction. It also means tackling the effects of what has happened in our own communities; the attacks, the threats and the hatred that has been shown.

The Bill is a proportionate, measured and moderate response to the events of 11th September. Many people will offer criticisms of the Bill and as a team we will do our best to defend its contents. However, the fact remains that it is a moderate response to the events of 11th September. Noble Lords will offer many suggestions about what else could have been included in the Bill but we have not sought to go the whole way. What is more, we have not rushed it. I accept that its passage through this House and the other place is quick, but 11th September is now some time ago and we took care before we published the legislation.

The Bill contains specific and targeted measures and it strikes a balance between respecting our fundamental liberties and ensuring that they are not exploited. The problem is that in a tolerant liberal society, if we are not guarded we will find that those who do not seek to be part of that society will use our tolerance and liberalism to destroy that society. That is a reality.

I intend to describe in general terms each part of the Bill, not each of the clauses. That would take far too long and we can discuss the detail in Committee. I want to put on record the thanks of the Government and of both Houses to all the members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the members of the Home Affairs Select Committee and, finally but by no means least, your Lordships' Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform. They have made considerable efforts to examine the Bill in a very short time and have produced extremely valuable reports. I am conscious of the efforts made by the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform. I have examined the report and its four recommendations. We will do our best to meet the spirit and, where we can, the letter of those recommendations. They are reasonable and where we

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cannot meet them we must have a good reason for not doing so. It will be a matter for your Lordships as to the way in which we progress.

I shall now deal with the parts of the Bill in the order in which they are printed. I hope that that will not cause too much confusion. Parts 1 and 2 relate to terrorist property and freezing orders. They contain new measures to combat terrorist financing and aid law enforcement agencies in their investigations. They complement those measures in the Proceeds of Crime Bill, but they are specific to terrorism.

There will be new powers for the police to monitor the bank accounts of terrorist suspects for up to 90 days. The police will be able to freeze assets from the start of an investigation, rather than from the start of criminal proceedings. Police and Customs officers will be able to seize cash anywhere within the United Kingdom. It will be an offence for those working in a regulated financial sector not to report where there are Xreasonable grounds" to suspect that accounts finance terrorism.

Part 2 deals with the power to freeze assets wherever there is an overseas threat to the UK economy or to the lives of UK citizens and residents. It modernises an existing power and allows us to counter the risk of assets being used to finance terrorism.

Part 3 deals with the disclosure of information. It widens the existing powers for the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise to pass confidential information to law enforcement and intelligence agencies. At present, only information regarding murder or treason can be disclosed. That hampers the exchange of information in the fight against terrorism.

Therefore, the Bill, in Part 3, allows for information to be disclosed for the purposes of a criminal investigation; for criminal proceedings; and where it would help decide whether an investigation or proceedings should start or finish. I fully accept that that is a highly sensitive part of the Bill with various government agencies exchanging information. It has been done in other legislation, most recently in last year's Social Security Fraud Bill. There must be good and compelling reasons for such disclosure and we believe that there are good and compelling reasons for the extension in this case.

Part 4 deals with immigration and asylum matters and offers proposals to combat abuse of immigration and asylum processes by international terrorists. The Government will maintain the respect for human rights which characterises our society—our commitment through our domestic law plus our international undertakings such as the European Convention on Human Rights and the Geneva Convention on Refugees 1951.

The Bill allows indefinite detention of people whose suspected involvement in international terrorism makes them a threat to national security. It applies where removal from the United Kingdom is the desirable aim but is not currently possible. As I said in the debate last week, our first choice would be to

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prosecute and remove if we could. If not, the choice would be to allow people to roam free or to detain them.

There are circumstances in which we cannot remove people for reasons that have been stated many times in your Lordships' House. We shall abide by our commitment to Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights as interpreted by the Court at Strasbourg. There can be no derogation from Article 3; either it applies or it does not. We are not prepared to dismiss that provision and, therefore, we are unable to remove people to certain countries.

There are full safeguards. In particular, the power must be renewed by both Houses of Parliament, initially after 15 months and thereafter every year. The Bill has been amended so that the power is reviewed independently by the reviewer of the Terrorism Act 2000, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. Those amendments were inserted into the Bill in the other place in the past few days. The Bill has also been amended to provide a five-year sunset clause. Under Clause 29 the power ceases after five years. There will be no affirmative or negative order; it will cease. If any government want to reintroduce the measure they must do so by primary legislation. That part of the Bill is subject to an absolute sunset clause after five years.

The new power of detention will be available for use only after the Home Secretary has certified that the person is a threat to national security. The decision to issue that certificate will be subject to appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission. That is a fairly new body. Its work is not widely known and it has not dealt with many cases. The commission was set up in 1997 by legislation which was approved by both Houses without dissent. The commission is chaired by a High Court judge. There will always be two judges and a lay person present. I understand that eight individuals—four judges and four lay people—can be called upon. This body is not an employment tribunal. The establishment of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission in the first place was a major constitutional step.

SIAC will be able to weigh all the evidence, including sensitive intelligence. The appellant's interests will be fully represented throughout the process and every six months SIAC will carry out a review of the certification. I do not want to mislead the House because I am using shorthand. The appellant will have his own lawyer or representative. However, before SIAC the appellant's lawyer who represents his case will be appointed from a list approved by the Attorney-General. For obvious reasons, there are restrictions on the information that the lawyer can share with his or her client.

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