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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I think that I am being tempted beyond my capacity. I have gone as far as I can to defend my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to praise his achievements. To start to criticise other countries' economies is further than I wish to goalthough I am grateful for what my noble friend says about the Chancellor's achievements.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, why, when unemployment is claimed to be so low, is employment lower than in May 1997 in 267 parliamentary constituencies in this land?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I do not know which are the 267 constituencies. Employment in the country as a whole is, of course, more than 1 million higher than it was in May 1997. If the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, is right to say that employment is lower in 267 constituencies; it must be much higher in the nearly 400 other constituencies. That is a statistical riddle that perhaps he and I should discuss outside the Chamber.
I suspect that that is because, despite the continuing difference between regions of this country and the difficulty that there has been reviving the regions, the economies of which were smashed by the Thatcher government in their destruction of the coal, steel and other industries, there is some recovery of equality throughout the country.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, it was fascinating to hear the Statement. The Pre-Budget Statement has become more and more like a Budget. Perhaps the precedent created by giving us that long and interesting Statement means that we shall also hear the Budget Statement repeated on the same day. We should then have the opportunity to debate it immediately.
I agree with what my noble friend Lord Saatchi said about health. Indeed, I find it amazing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have gone into all that detail on the health service. Had I been the Secretary of State for Health, I should have been rather irritated. Having said that, I congratulate the Chancellor on five years of cautious and successful macro-economic management. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, that the economy is in a strong position.
I am sorry that the Minister was so uncharitable as not to recognise that the starting point for Mr Gordon Brown's economic management was the sound economic situation that the Labour Party inherited. Given the good present situation of the economy, he could have had the generosity to do that.
I found it especially encouraging in the Chancellor's Statement that he felt it a particularly suitable moment to embark on new supply-side policies. That is absolutely right. The Liberal Democrat spokesman talked about the need for higher taxes. I can think of few thinking politicians todayother than the noble Lord, Lord Hattersley, perhapswho would agree.
The forecasts for the world economy are rather more gloomy than the Chancellor suggested. I hope that, if consumers stop consuming and tax revenues fall by as much as I think they may, the Chancellor will recognise that this is a time to borroweven if that means abandoning his sustainable investment rule and the golden rule. Will the Minister comment on that?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, despite the distinction of my noble friend Lord Desai, compliments about macro-economic policy gain in credibility when they come from the Conservative Benches. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Marlseford, for what he said.
The noble Lord asks whether the Statement is becoming more like a Budget Statement, and whether that means that we should debate the Budget Statement in this House. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, would agree with that second proposition. But that is a matter for the House, rather than for me.
However, I should sound a note of warning. Various projections are included in the tables of the pre-Budget Report, which noble Lords will not have had time to study. They should not be taken as the equivalent of the projections based on calculations made for a Finance Bill. There are few firm commitments, other than consultation proposals, in the pre-Budget Report. Nothing that is not a firm commitmentsuch as the #1 billion for the health service or the guarantees for pensionersis included in the tables. They are therefore not strictly comparable with the Red Book, or Budget Report.
I am sorry that we have returned to May 1997; I confess that I was tempted, and I fell. Of course, the last few years of the Conservative government showed, in particular, a steady decrease in unemployment that has continued under this Government. It would be
churlish not to recognise that a number of macro-economic indicators were improving under the chancellorship of Mr Kenneth Clarke. However, the Chancellor has today talked about the public finances and the unsustainable extent of public borrowingthe fact that we could not have sustained the golden rule or our borrowing principles if we had not spent a considerable time when we took office working within the spending constraints left by Mr Clarke. That made it possible for us to adhere to these rules. There are serious arguments to be made without too much parti pris.However, the fact is that we are all Keynesians now. Even Mr Bush recognises that borrowing at this stage of the economic cycle, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is, it can be strongly argued, the right thing to do. Under the Government there has been a substantial increase in public investment which some of us believe does not go far enough to remedy the under-investment of the previous 20 years. Nevertheless, it is significant in its own terms and also significant in counter-cyclical policy.
Second Reading debate resumed.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, we turn from one major subject to another. However, before commenting on the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill, I want to make a couple of personal comments. First, I apologise to the House and seek its understanding that should the debate continue to run at its present rate of progress, I must leave before the end in order to keep engagements in Manchester early tomorrow. I regret that very much. Secondly, we look forward to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, who has waited a long time today to make his maiden speech.
We on these Benches support the Bill dealing with terrorism. Terrorism committed here or elsewhere can never be in the public interest and it needs to be discouraged and outlawed. We recognise the need to bring forward a Bill now. Some people in the country are fearful and are concerned about terrorists already living among us or coming to live among us in the future. We are grateful for the Government's concern about that.
However, we are concerned about the Bill as presently drafted and I want to refer to a few of our concerns. First, we must be clear about definitions. I refer in particular to Clause 21. What do we mean by Xterrorism" and Xterrorists"? Morally speaking, terrorism is terrorism, whoever commits it, wherever it is committed, whenever it is committed and however it is committed. But if we are to make distinctions between one terrorist and anotherI have already heard reference made to foreign terrorists and national terrorists, international terrorists and today we are told by the Minister that some terrorists are stateless
we must be clear that those distinctions are sustainable at law because we do not want to have endless legal disputes over identity.Secondly, I want to deal in more detail with Part 4, which deals with immigration and asylum. I am concerned about the potential damage to existing constitutional protection for such people as genuine seekers of asylum. The Bill describes measures to deal with immigration and asylum and Clause 21 allows the detention without trial of foreign nationals who are Xsuspected" of being terrorists but who have not broken British law and cannot be deported or extradited to their own countries.
The provisions are before us in order to prevent terrorists from posing as bona fide immigrants. However, it seems that those suspected of being foreign terrorists will be interned indefinitely without knowing the evidence against them; that is, until the expiry of the five-year time limit on the use of the detention powers. Can we be sure that genuine asylum seekers will not have their claims rejected out of hand and that they will not be denied the protection of the 1951 refugee convention? And can we be confident that implementation of the proposals to identify and detain terrorists will not undermine the human rights of those who are genuinely seeking asylum in the United Kingdom?
I remain concerned, as do a number of my colleagues, that without sufficient consultation the Bill could lead to the introduction of laws which instigate racist or religious discrimination and offend civil liberties. Will the Bill lead to the imprisonment without trial of those who visibly appear to be terrorists, because of their colour, ethnicity or culture? While supporting government legislation to outlaw terrorists, I am concerned that the new measure will have a negative effect on community relations in the United Kingdom.
In the Christian tradition, the example of Jesus, who was crucified unjustly because he was thought by some to be a friend of the Zealots (religious terrorists), reminds us not to impose injustice on the innocent. If we are to speed forward legislation, failing adequately to consult and debate with organisations which represent minority, ethnic and religious groups, we run the risk of destroying the recent welcome advances made in community relations in the United Kingdom.
The whole topic of asylum seekers is controversial. Is it right that asylum seekers' fingerprints are to be kept for up to 10 years if they committed no offence? Above all, the denial of judicial review for a person detained under the Bill as an asylum seeker breaks centuries of tradition. I shall leave the lawyers to explain it all, but I want to point out that we recognise the point. Am I correct in concluding that a person could be detained for the whole five-year period, even if there is a six-month review by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission? Is that a proportionate response to the current situation?
After all those hesitations and questions about the Bill, I gladly note, first, that the Government have resolved not to allow asylum seekers to be deported to
countries where they will face torture, inhumane treatment or the death penalty. The fact that that has been spelt out is most welcome. Secondly, we are pleased that the Bill could speed up the present asylum process.Part 5 of the Bill, concerning race and religion, is also of crucial importance to us, but my friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark will speak about that later in the debate. I want to turn to Part 10, which deals with police powers.
I am concerned about the potential damage done to fragile community relations if the Bill is implemented as drafted. As regards police powers, Clause 89 allows photographing, fingerprinting and searching for identification. Clause 94 seems to allow a police officer to order people to remove gloves, balaclavas, face paint, a burka or any other outer garment,
Authorisation under Clause 89 is by a police inspector or higher rank, but Clause 93 applies to police constables on patrol.
What exactly will the police powers be? Will any police officer be able to stop a person wearing a scarf, balaclava, a turban, a veil or gloves in a public place and request their removal? Will a police officer be able to arrest men and women without charge, take them to a police station, require them to be searched, including perhaps through burkas, photographed (including photographs of their body) and fingerprinted when no offence has been committed?
I am pleased to note in the Bill that intimate searches and photographs of a person of the opposite sex are prohibitedthat is clearly stated in the Billand that the only persons allowed to act in that way are police officers or designated lay staff. But the power to remove articles of clothing from people who have done nothing wrong seems severe. Will such power help the atmosphere on the streets? I speak as one who comes from the North of England.
Such powers are likely to impact hardest on ethnic minority and some religious groups who traditionally cover themselves and are not amused by some of our advertising for under-garments which we see on bill hoardings around the cities. Does this part of the Bill in effect bring back the old stop and search laws? The powers seem to be wider than the old law because there is no need to prove why the examination is necessary. It could prove very divisive in some areas where enormous attempts have been made, and continue to be made, by leaders of local ethnic and religious community groupsamong them Members on these Benches and the policeto build and rebuild good community relations following not only September 11th and difficulties earlier in the summer but those which date back to the Stephen Lawrence inquiry and previously. A great deal of work has been done which we do not want to see called into question or undermined by the implementation of the Bill in a heavy-handed way.
I conclude on a positive note because we welcome the Bill, even if we have some questions on its drafting. I refer to nuclear, aviation and biological security. The proposals to increase restrictions on laboratories, civil nuclear plants, airports and aircraft are very welcome. It is also good that aircraft operators will be able to remove from aircraft and airports persons who are not there legally. If security at airports is to be similar to the restrictions at the Channel Tunnel, as I believe is the intention of the Bill, that is very good news.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, some noble Lords may have noticed that my introduction to your Lordships' House involved a reversal of roles since my honourable friend Viscount Thurso has succeeded me in another place as MP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross. Such a swap is, I think, a constitutional innovation which may commend itself to some noble Lords. Many noble Lords will remember Viscount Thurso and share my view that my former constituents have done rather well out of the exchange. I make only the rueful comment that, whereas he served an apprenticeship here of a mere six years, I had to spend 35 years in another place before I qualified to make the change.
The readiness is all. But it must be admitted that some are more ready than others. I have in mind my predecessor as Member of Parliament and now my noble friend Lord Mackie of Benshie. He has been kind enough to tell me that his electoral defeat at my hands had done him a favour. I never quite grasped what he meant. Now, however, having experienced for myself the kind consideration of your Lordships in this House, I have no doubt at all.
Throughout my life in Westminster I have been much concerned with the question underlying the measure before us this afternoon. How should a mature democracy properly seek to protect its citizens when they are threatened by dangerous lawlessness or external attack? The domestic overreaction of the younger Pitt and his Ministers to the threats of the French Revolution even moved me to write for the stage two years ago of the injustice done to the Scottish reformer Thomas Muir. But my own first legislative initiative was motivated by concern adequately to protect our citizenry against such a perceived danger.
As long ago as December 1966 as a private Member I piloted onto the statute book a Bill reflecting the provisions of the Tokyo Convention on crimes committed on board aircraft. It was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilberforce, who has been with us so much recently, who, with distinction, led the British delegation in Tokyo. That convention sought to ensure that prosecution of such criminals was not prevented by absence of jurisdiction. It also gave powers to the commanders of aircraft as well as to passengers to take action against threatened criminal activity on board.
There was at that time a remarkable lack of urgency shown by the international community about these issues. Three years after signature only three states had
bothered to ratify the convention. It is also true that the international and domestic legislative processes are fallible in attempting to foresee and forestall the actions which terrorists may take to further their aims. The horrific and unforeseen events and atrocities of September 11th have shown that some amendments to the law are indeed needed. It is, for example, only in the Bill before us that a clear gap in the provisions of the Tokyo Convention is finally being filled by Clause 84(2), to which the Minister drew attention. That clause empowers certain individuals to use force to remove unauthorised persons from aircraft. No matter how carefully legislation is drawn in this sphere, it tends to ride behind events.But I believe that there is another pitfall for governments when disaster strikes. That is to believe that what has happened might not have occurred had the law been different. That error may be compounded by the pressure on Ministers responsible for security to do something, and to be seen to be doing something. I sympathised with the Home Secretary when he sought in another place to justify this Bill on the grounds that,
We must also acknowledge that the law, however necessary, is unlikely of itself to counter the ingenuities of the terrorists and make good the deficiencies of intelligence, poor policing and security failures. The heroic passengers who on September 11th wrestled the suicidal hijackers down into the ground of Pennsylvania needed more protection than the legal defences of their action provided by the Tokyo Convention.
The Home Secretary has asked for urgent and appropriate action by Parliament. In this House we have been given twice as long as another place to consider carefully what is urgent, important and appropriate. I acknowledge at once that there is much in this Bill which is both urgent and appropriate, particularly those provisions which fill in the gaps in dealing with the funding of terrorism. But there are matters for which urgency cannot be claimed. I cite the ill-considered proposals on incitement to religious hatred. And there are matters which are of highly questionable appropriateness. For my part, the most questionable are the arrangements proposed in Part 4 of the Bill on the detention of terrorist suspects which require our derogation from Article 5(1) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
I do not overlook the Home Secretary's dilemma in respect of those whom he suspects are terrorists but who cannot be deported. Whatever the intentions, however, the consequence of Part 4 is repugnant. Detention without evidence in support being disclosed to the subject is repugnant. The SIAC review may be by a judicial tribunal and as such is preferable to an unchallengeable decision by the Home Secretary, but such a tribunal lacks the lineaments of natural justice. The evidence of the necessity of Part 4 is thin. The Joint Committee on Human Rights, on which I had the privilege to serve until the last election, has unanimously expressed its doubt,
The Home Secretary himself said on 15th October:
In a changing situation, Parliament has a duty to keep such executive claims of necessity under more than formal review. If the Home Secretary thinks it necessary to continue to limit legal protection of fundamental rights and freedoms and to put them beyond the reach of the courts, then he must come back and persuade Parliament that the Xexceptional situation of crisis or emergency" is indeed still continuing.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, I am very fortunate to rise immediately after the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, and therefore to have the privilege of congratulating him on his maiden speech. I have always known him as a very self-effacing man, but no one should be fooled by that. He comes here after a most distinguished career in another place. He is a former president of the Liberal Democrats and has exercised considerable influence on his party's fortunes. He has been a Front Bench spokesman on home affairs and on constitutional affairs.
He established something of a record by standing for one and the same constituency under three different party banners. But, whatever the banner he has marched under, he has always been a man of moderation, who has spoken in measured terms. For that reason, he will probably be a lot happier here than he was in another place. But whether he is or is not, I can assure him that we shall always welcome him here.
We will be looking forward in anticipation for other excellent contributions such as the one he has made today.I start from the standpoint that it would be absolutely wrong to deny the Government powers which they can show are urgently needed to meet the terrorist threat. The Home Secretary must be bearing a very heavy burden, and if he says that a power is urgently needed, we should take him at his word unless there is good reason to doubt it.
But we should surely not allow the present and immediate threat to be used to put on the statute bookby a timetable which does not allow the normal scrutinymeasures which have no bearing on the fight against terrorism or which bestow on the Government powers far wider than is necessary to meet that threat. Still less should we give the Government power to implement by secondary legislation measures which are not only wider than necessary to meet the threat but which create new offences, impose new penalties and affect to a very significant degree the individual rights and liberties of the subject.
The proposal to make incitement to religious hatred a criminal offence has been hanging around in the Home Office for a long time, at least since 1985 when it featured in a Law Commission report. So it has precious little to do with the events of September 11th, except in the sense that after September 11th it was offered to the Muslim community as a kind of sop to buy support for the war against terrorism. So I, for one, was very pleased when I read in the papers that it was going to be dropped from the Bill. I was correspondingly disappointed when I learnt that the reports were all wrong.
I am sure that the Minister knows that there are genuine worries that the measure could be used to punish no more than the intemperate voicing of sincerely held beliefs. Some fear that, in the event, it may be used more against Muslims, who are not always slow to attack others for their religion, than against those who vilify them. A fat lot of good that will do in ensuring that extremists do not get up to mischief in the Muslim community.
The proposal is not necessary to meet the present threat. It needs a lot more thought than can be given to it in emergency legislation. Having waited for 16 years for it to become law, we can face with equanimity the possibility of having to wait for a few more years.
Turning to Part 4, the cause of much anxiety, in order to derogate from Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights the Government have had to go through some truly extraordinary contortionsasserting that while there is no actual emergency within the country, there is an emergency within the meaning of the convention, a public emergency so serious that it threatens the life of the nation. There is something Alice in Wonderland about that.
It is sad and not at all funny that the Government should feel that, as a result of the convention, they cannot do the obvious thingthrow out of the
country terrorists who have got in here, and then prevent any more arriving. Because of what most would say is the strained and artificial interpretation that has been put on Article 3 of the convention, the Government feel that they cannot remove people who are a danger to the state even to countries such as the United States of America and Indiacountries which every right thinking person knows provide a reasonable standard of justice and do not torture people or put them to death arbitrarily.The Government feel that, because of this, they must take the far more authoritarian step of suspending habeas corpus. It is laughable that the Government feel themselves forced to argue that it is perfectly proper to try to blow bin Laden to pieces on the soil of Afghanistan but, if he arrived in this country claiming asylum, we would have to admit him to examine his claim and would not then be able to extradite him to America to face trial unless America said that it would not subject him to the death penalty. That is an absurd position for us to have got ourselves into.
I do not know whether it is practicable to follow the suggestion that we should denounce the whole convention and then re-enter with a reservation as to Article 3 but, if the Government say that it is not practicable, I, for one, am prepared to accept detention as the only practical alternative, hoping that some at least will eventually learn the lesson that an obsession with rights can end up leaving the citizens of a country with fewer of them. That is what is happening here.
Turning, finally, to Clauses 110 and 111formerly Clauses 109 and 110I should mention that I am a member of the Select Committee on Delegated Powers, which has had some fairly strong words to say about these clauses. In seeking power to implement measures by delegated legislation, the Government are following the precedent of the European Communities Act 1972. But the measures which we are now considering are far more serious. Because they affect individual rights and liberties and cover the most sensitive areas of policing and criminal justice, they are far more serious than the largely economic and regulatory measures adopted by means of the 1972 Act after we joined the Community.
That original regulation-making power was granted to the Government in 1972 after a protracted debate. The Bill was in Committee for no less than 22 days after three days debate on Second Reading. These powers, which can be used to legislate on matters far removed from the terrorist threat, are sought in a Bill which is rushing through Parliament at breakneck speed.
Perhaps I may spell out what the clause gives the Minister powers to do. It does not only give him power to implement decisions made after 11th September by European Ministers as their response to the events of 11th September, it enables him to implement by delegated legislation every decision that has already been made at intergovernmental level and every decision that may be made in the future under Title VI of the Treaty on European Union, the third pillar.
It gives the Minister power to create criminal offences which have nothing whatever to do with terrorism: serious offences which have nothing to do with terrorism, and which attract imprisonment for a term of any lengthwe have only to look at Clause 110(7)and quite minor offences which have nothing to do with terrorism, attracting sentences of two years or less on indictment or three months before the magistratesI refer to Clause 110(5). Such measures are not passed on the likes of Mr bin Laden.
The power enables the Minister to implement by order measures such as the draft framework decision on the European arrest warrant. I know that the Government have said that they will introduce primary legislation in that case, but that does not alter the fact that the power is wide enough to implement, by secondary legislation, a measure such as the European arrest warrant, a measure that would allow extradition for offences
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