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Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl. I may have misunderstood his first couple of sentences, but he is talking only about asylum seekers. No one has said that those who may be detained under Clause 21 will be asylum seekers. We are not targeting asylum seekers but international terrorists. We seek those who try to misuse the system by later claiming asylum. They may not claim asylum. They may already be refugees. They will be held—if they are held—in the same conditions as other people, such as remand prisoners. Their families will be treated the same. The noble Earl referred to the prospect of children being detained. I am not clear why the noble Earl raised that matter. We are talking about people designated as international terrorists. We are not talking about family groupings or children and their education.

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The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his intervention. That helps me to put my case more clearly. I believe that there are two new detention centres which will take families for short periods of time—under 10 days. Is that correct?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am sorry to labour the point. The immigration detention estate and its processes have got nothing to do with the Bill. Anyone held under the Bill as a suspected international terrorist will not be held in the immigration detention estate. They will be in prison, probably a high security prison. The Bill has nothing to do with the immigration detention estate—the new places coming onstream or the existing ones. There are only five places onstream. They are not fully occupied at the moment because they are brand new buildings. But we are not talking about that. That has nothing to do with this legislation. The prospect of induction centres and accommodation centres is completely outwith the Bill. That has got nothing whatever to do with it.

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I thank the Minister. Perhaps he will forgive my ignorance. He will understand that I am especially interested in families in vulnerable situations. I do not know much about this area, but I am raising a concern that appears to be being answered by the Minister. My picture is that a family has sought asylum here and then, through the efforts of our secret services, information is gained that strongly suggests that it is involved in international terrorism and it is detained for that reason. So the family members may have been asylum seekers at some point and then they are detained under the new arrangement.

Simply put, my concern is that some dependants of those detained may be vulnerable people. They may have difficulty accessing the detainee. It is important to emphasise that such detainees will be held only under suspicion of terrorism; no case under the normal process of law will have been proved against them. In similar situations, people have been held whom, on their release, have been clearly innocent. I am worried that in such circumstances families should have regular access to the detainee.

We may need to treat such families slightly differently from the rest of the families of people within the prison estate, because the Government are exercising an extraordinary power on a few people each year. The Government are saying, XWe will imprison you because we fear what you may do. We do not want to risk our society suffering an attack like that of 11th September. We do not want to risk you inflicting that on other societies. But we will not take you through the full process of law." In such circumstances, the families of the individuals concerned should be given special attention. I look forward to hearing from the Minister—perhaps in a later conversation—greater elucidation of the full situation. I shall not detain the House further at this late hour.

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11.8 p.m.

Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, I should like briefly to concentrate on the policing aspects of the Bill covered in Part 10, and I begin with a declaration of interest. Until recently, I was a member of a police authority for 20 years. I chaired North Yorkshire's police authority for the last seven of those years. I was also a deputy chair of the Association of Police Authorities and a member of the National Crime Squad Service Authority.

Your Lordships may wonder what all that has to do with extending the powers of the British Transport Police, the UK Atomic Energy Authority special constables and the Ministry of Defence Police. I hope to be able to demonstrate that my concerns are not simply those of a narrow interest but begin to unpick some of the fundamental principles on which policing in this country is based.

My concerns about the Bill are demarcation and, more importantly, accountability. It has been a long-held belief that the powers of the police are well-documented and open to scrutiny under various Acts of Parliament. The police have wide-ranging powers, and the law is to be used to support those powers. I am therefore troubled that the extension of those powers will be to officers who, in the main, have had neither the wide-ranging training in law of regular police officers nor the experience gained by dealing with members of the public.

Professional and dedicated though I know those officers to be, they are not under the same scrutiny as regular police officers, nor will they be so when the Bill becomes law. Will the Home Office regulations apply to them? What further training will they need to bring them up to the same and publicly accepted standards of regular officers? Who is to pay for that? How long will it take?

We are expecting them to undertake a range of duties, albeit in support of their regular colleagues, but it is unclear to me just who will be in control of any given situation should one arise. Perhaps I may give an example of what I mean. An incident occurs and a constable begins to deal with it. It becomes apparent that he needs help and through his chief constable he calls on the British Transport Police or the Ministry of Defence Police or a special constable from the Atomic Energy Authority. One of those officers arrives and turns out to have a higher rank than the regular police officer. Who will have precedence in dealing with the incident? Might there not be legitimate grounds for believing that at least there is a possibility for confusion to reign? Who will take control of the incident? Who will write it up and report back on it? To whom will he or she report?

That leads me to another point. At present, there is no statutory British Transport Police authority, nor is there one for the Ministry of Defence Police. I am afraid that I do not know about the Atomic Energy Authority's special constables. However, I understand that authorities are to be created certainly for the BTP and MoD Police and I welcome that.

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It is essential that when we are proposing extended powers to other law enforcement agencies we make them accountable. That is the convention when we talk about how the powers of our regular police officers are scrutinised. It is done through published local policing plans and rigorous consultation with members of the public. This legislation will be in place long before the creation of such bodies and in the mean time the Government are proposing to give wide-ranging powers to officers from those three services before proper scrutiny of their working can be put into place. That worries me.

I believe that there are existing and adequate powers for the police to carry out searches, examinations and fingerprinting of those in detention. The powers extend PACE to include Xfor identification purposes". If someone does not voluntarily admit to having an identifying mark, the police will be able to order him to submit to a search in order to ascertain whether or not he has a mark. How will they do that? May reasonable force be used? Will the person, perforce, have to submit to a strip search? If not, how can the police conclusively say whether or not there are identifying marks?

Similarly, in seeking the removal of face coverings the Government must explain why it is felt necessary to seek a new power to remove coverings even when the person requested to do so has not been arrested. Powers already exist for the police to remove anything worn to disguise identity.

Living as I do in the North of England, and coming into the winter months, I regularly see young people going about their business wearing balaclavas or hoods. It seems to be a fashion fad at the moment. They may be intent on mischief but I do not believe that they are intent on terrorism. The same applies to people attending football matches or lawful demonstrations. The point is that this part of the Bill would give wide-ranging powers to police officers before an offence has been committed and I believe it to be unnecessary, as does the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and Scottish Ministers, who do not intend to use those particular powers. If the Government believe that it is necessary, why do we need these particular powers now? There will be ample time to debate them at leisure during the passage of the police Bill which is proposed in the next Session. It seems to me that they have little to do with stopping terrorism.

The Bill constantly puts the onus on the police officer with language such as Xreasonably believes that", Xthat it is expedient to", or Xreasonably expected to" and so forth. Again, our regular officers in the front line will have to balance their powers finely. That is a recipe for bitter confrontation, especially when dealing with young people and ethnic minorities at a time when we desperately need their support. An extension of PACE and stop and search powers is not necessary, could create conflict and will hamper good community relations. I urge the Government to look carefully at these proposals as we move through the various stages of the Bill.

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11.16 p.m.

Earl Attlee: My Lords, the hour is late and I shall not weary noble Lords by repeating points already made. Much has been said with which I agree; there are some matters with which I disagree. But all speakers have been interesting and thought-provoking. Much has been said about Part 4. I have found the debate useful but worrying. I support the principles but suspect that there will be difficulties with the detail. Clauses 98 to 101 deal with the jurisdiction of the MoD and the British Transport police. I know that noble Lords will consider the position carefully in Committee.

The noble Baroness, Lady Harris, raised some concerns, particularly the matter of precedence. I do not believe that there will be difficulty in that regard. When we debated the British Transport Police recently it became apparent that when that force helped the Home Office police the latter would have primacy in the incident. When the Territorial Army works with the Regular Army sometimes there are similar difficulties over rank. As a major I have found myself deferring to a regular captain because he has the expertise. I believe that in the situations to which the noble Baroness alluded the same will happen.

I fear that there may be a gap in the Bill because it does not cover service policemen: the Royal Military Police and the RAF Police. Obviously, that may not be necessary at present, but it may be desirable to have a reserve power under the affirmative resolution procedure. It would be unfortunate if it was found necessary to return to Parliament for further primary legislation at a later date. However, it may be difficult to draft suitable amendments to the Bill.

I share the concerns of the noble Baroness about the lack of a police authority for the British Transport Police and the MoD Police. I worry that this Bill will make a BTP and MoD Police Bill less likely. We are aware of a number of anomalies relating to the British Transport Police and ironically this Bill may create a delay in dealing with them. Obviously, the priority is this measure.

The purpose of the Bill is to give the authorities the necessary legislative tools to do their job, but they also need the necessary equipment. Undoubtedly, the UK will face threats that it has not encountered before. However, that does not mean that there are no government organisations with the relevant expertise. Therefore, when a police force or security organisation asks the Home Office to approve a new piece of equipment it will have a government organisation to whom it can turn. Difficulty may arise if the equipment for which the organisation desires approval is already in use in another sophisticated friendly country, particularly the United States, but is not approved in the UK. The noble and learned Lord and the Home Office Minister know exactly what I am talking about. What assurance can the Government give that our police forces and other security organisations will not be denied access to equipment simply because the time or resources are not available to evaluate it in the UK? The Ministers appear to be slightly confused. I wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, this morning and left

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the envelope in the Prince's Chamber. Judging by the expression on the noble Lord's face perhaps he has not yet received it.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford raised some interesting points about passports and identity cards. Many of the difficulties that he described also relate to equipment capabilities. I, too, am very disappointed with the lack of progress on a firearms data base, which has some peripheral relevance to the matters we are discussing.

There may also be a problem of excessive demand for security equipment which cannot be met by the original manufacturer's production resources. There is nothing unusual about licensing agreements or manufacturing at several sites and in different countries in order to meet an emergency demand. Can the noble and learned Lord assure the House that a lack of production capacity would never be a reason for non-availability of the anti-terrorist equipment desired by our police forces? The Minister may of course prefer to write to me.

11.20 p.m.

Lord Warner: My Lords, it is with some trepidation that I rise to speak very briefly to Part 5 of the Bill, which is concerned with incitement to religious hatred. A number of noble Lords have touched on this part of the Bill and I share their concern about getting into the complex area covered by Part 5. I am more cautious in my approach to Part 5 than my noble friend Lord Harris.

I have the highest regard for my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and I understand why he included the provisions in Part 5. They are there from the best of motives. They show the Government responding with sensitivity to concerns in the Muslim communities that they might become the victims of incitement to religious hatred in the wake of the terrible events of 11th September. That was fully acknowledged by my noble friend Lord Ahmed in his thoughtful speech.

I am the last person to want to give any encouragement to the whipping up of religious hatred. Indeed, I speak as a long-standing member of the easy-going wing of the religiously indifferent and uninvolved. My concern about Part 5 is that it might turn out to be a case study of the law of unintended consequences, with the legislation being used against some of those whom it is intended to protect.

The word Xhatred" has a range of dictionary definitions, including Xactive dislike" and Xill will". A large number of things could be said by a person of a particular set of beliefs that could be adjudged to be inciting people to active dislike or ill will towards another group with different beliefs. My understanding of the beliefs and textual interpretations of some adherents of different religions is that they can produce some fairly blood-curdling utterances about those who do not share their religious beliefs.

Given that Part 5 seems to apply to utterances that could relate to overseas groups, there seems to be plenty of scope in these provisions for unintended,

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unpleasant and messy consequences. All religions have their proportion of zealots, and I have an uneasy feeling that Part 5 will bring them out into the open, with consequences that we may well regret, as the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, indicated.

Looking at the wording of the Bill, if I were inclined to pick a legal fight with a group I disliked, it would not be that difficult to produce evidence of the intention and likelihood of stirring up religious hatred that would require the police to investigate my claim. It would only be after the police had investigated that the safeguards of the DPP and my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General having to decide whether to bring charges would kick-in. Although I have every confidence in the judgment of my noble and learned friend, we would be unleashing a number of fruitless police inquiries and unpredictable inter-religious disputes that would be meat and drink to the media.

If I thought Part 5 of the Bill would protect us against terrorism I would have more sympathy with it. But I cannot see that it will. It seems to me more likely to bring Parliament, the courts and the police inappropriately into the territory of religious belief, requiring them to arbitrate on acceptable and unacceptable expressions of those beliefs.

I have considerable concerns about the likelihood of the unintended adverse consequences that would flow from Part 5 of the Bill. I ask my noble friend the Minister and my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General to think again about the value of including these provisions in the Bill. If we are thought to need further legislation aimed at protecting religious beliefs and their expression, I would hope that this could be a free-standing Bill following a proper public debate and a careful weighing of the options. I do not necessarily agree with my noble friend Lord Ahmed about legislation on religious discrimination, but I do agree with him that if there is to be such legislation, that would be a better vehicle for the territory that is covered in Part 5.

11.25 p.m.

Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, perhaps I may take advantage of the gap to make a few brief observations on three topics. The first two relate to Parts 12 and 13, and I want to add my voice to those of others who have said that these provisions should find no place in the Bill. Perhaps I may address Part 12 first, dealing with corruption and the bribery of foreign officials.

Anyone who knows about the criminal law of bribery will know that it is almost a standing joke that reforms have been called for for anything up to 40 years in this field and nothing has been done. The earliest unimplemented recommendations known to me are those of Lord Salmon, whose committee followed the Poulson affair. More recently, there have been reports from the Law Commission on the topic of bribery and corruption. The committee of which I had the honour to be chairman, the Committee on Standards in Public Life, endorsed some of the earlier recommendations. Then, in 1997, there was an OECD

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convention on the bribery of foreign public officials. To put it in a nutshell, there is a whole area of law here that needs to be reviewed and looked at as a whole subject, and properly reformed. What we are given in the Bill is just a few snippets aimed at foreign types of corruption. It contains a limited number of provisions dealing with a confined aspect of corruption. It is a major topic, which should be tackled and introduced in either a separate Bill or in different conditions, without the haste that we have here.

In passing, perhaps I may say a word about the argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. If I heard him correctly, he was saying that we want to go a bit easy on this recommendation about no bribes to get a foreign contract, because if our businessmen do not pay bribes there will be others overseas who will be perfectly willing to do so. It may be that I did not hear the noble Lord very well. Perhaps he had his tongue in his cheek. But it seems to me that that is not a message that ought to go out from this House. That is all that I want to say on corruption. It is a big topic and it should be looked at seriously.

Secondly, as regards Clauses 110 and 111 providing for the implementation of the third pillar via delegated legislation, I urge on the House the view that we do not want to proceed in this hugger-mugger way of altering our law. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, mentioned by way of example that there may be three conventions that ought to be implemented and this would be a way of doing it. But what we are doing is signing a blank cheque for all kinds of possible new provisions, including, if we read Clause 110(7), certain criminal offences. I find it extremely difficult to make out what the definition of them is, but undoubtedly the power to create new provisions by secondary legislation extends to criminal offences. It occurred to me that there may be issues here that are fit for consideration by the Select Committee on the European Union which could warn us and tell us what is the full scope of the words relating to the third pillar and the scope of what might be introduced. I do not believe that anyone in this House has the slightest idea of the width of the provision. There is no time to go into the definition of the third pillar, but that in itself is a complicated matter.

The third matter I want to address is the ousting of judicial review. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that Queen's Counsel will be wishing to preserve their playground. I hope that he was not wishing to incite hatred against a class or sub-class of the community. But the effect of the provisions in Clause 30(1) and Clause 34(8) is quite serious. The clauses provide for no form of judicial review.

Why has streamlined review not been thought about? The idea seems to be that we should have the full process. I read a report in the newspaper of an extradition case that has taken three years to come to the House of Lords. If it decides aversely against the applicant, the case will go back to the Minister, and then there can be another round of judicial review possibly lasting a further three years. One has only to tell that to the man in the street for him to say, XThat is scandalous. It is absurd". Is not it time that we got a

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grip on our procedures for appeal? We can have swift, expedited appeals before an ordinary court. It is difficult to understand why this should be some closed community. I shall return to that point in a moment.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell—I am sorry he is not present—referred to the case of Anisminit. I am sure in his scholarly review of the case he noticed the names of counsel. I happened to be one of the counsel; I declare an interest in it. In that case, we were lucky to find a way by which the court could get round an ouster clause. Generally speaking, a clause which says that the court shall not review such-and-such a decision is a complete bar. Unless you can find some abuse, such as abuse of natural justice or some evident illegality by the tribunal, you have no hope of getting round it. The noble Earl was too optimistic in thinking that the courts would find ways round it. It is very difficult. You have to be very lucky with the evidence you manage to obtain.


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