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Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I rise only to remind the noble Lord that there is a convention in the House that speeches in the gap should be limited to no longer than four minutes.
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, I say no more.
11.32 p.m.
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, we are at last on the home stretch. I declare an interest. I am vice-chairman of the council of Justice, an organisation which among other things has produced what I regard as an extremely valuable briefing paper for this debate.
We have had a wide debate which has crossed party lines. I have found myself in agreement not only with my noble friend Lord Maclennan in his distinguished maiden speech, and other noble friends, but also with many speakers on other Benches. I hope that other noble Lords will forgive me if I single out in particular the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. I noted that of eight speakers from the Government Back Benches only the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, gave anything like full support to his Government. I await with interest the reply of the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General. The Government may recognise that if one has a bad case one needs to get the best advocate one can buy. Advocates do not come better than the Attorney-General.
I recognise that the 11th September changed the world. Those people who planned and carried out the atrocities demonstrated an organisational skill, fanaticism and rejection of all the norms of human behaviour which was breathtaking. We have therefore supported the Government's actions and their support of the US in the destruction of the Al'Qaeda network and the removal of the Taliban tyranny. Those who commit or sponsor terrorism must, wherever they may be and as soon as possible, be brought to justice.
We cannot say that an 11th September atrocity can never happen in this country. I agree with the analysis of the risk by the noble and learned Lord, Lord
Mayhew. As the closest allies of the US, we are, next to them, a prime target. We can and do support all proper steps that can be taken to defend the people of the United Kingdom against tyranny. Had the Government introduced a short and focused Bill, limited specifically to the essential measures to deal with the heightened threat of terrorism, we would have supported it. However, the Government have introduced a vast Bill going far beyond the immediate problem. I remember the furore when Jo Moore sent an e-mail on 11th September saying that it was a good opportunity to release stories that her department wished to bury. What the Government have done with this Bill is to use 11th September to resurrect bits and pieces of legislation which have little or nothing to do with terrorism and to tack them on to what is supposed to be an emergency Bill. That is not so different in principle from Jo Moore's action.In principle, we support Parts 1 and 2 on terrorist property and freezing orders. I was interested by the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, that those parts do not go far enough. He may be right. We support Part 6 on weapons of mass destruction; Part 7 on pathogens and toxins; Part 8 on the security of the nuclear industry; and Part 9 on aviation security. We have concerns about some issues—such as the role of the Atomic Energy Authority Police, to which my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond referred.
We support also Part 12, which deals with bribery and corruption outside the United Kingdom. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. We understood that Part 12 had all-party support. Although we agree that it is technically out of place in an emergency Bill, it does not require much further debate and is unlikely to take up much time. Like the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, I was concerned at the attitude of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith: XEverybody does it, so we must go on doing it too". Corruption is an enormous evil that contributes greatly to poverty in much of the developing world.
Part 12 implements the OECD convention that was ratified by this country in 1998. We have been criticised for our continuing failure to implement that convention. I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, looks at the House of Commons research paper on Part 12 that is available in the Library.
I refer to parts of the Bill that are not targeted at terrorism or matters of urgency outside the context of terrorism and need much fuller discussion than they will receive here. Part 3 deals with the use of information held by public authorities for the purposes of criminal investigation and proceedings. It is not concerned with just terrorist crimes but with any crimes. My noble friend Lord Phillips spoke strongly on that subject and I agree with him.
Schedule 4 lists no fewer than 53 UK statutes and 13 pieces of Northern Ireland legislation. Information that is given to public authorities under those statutes will be made available to those investigating and proceeding against crime—including overseas authorities. Part 3 raises serious questions under data
protection laws, the right not to incriminate oneself and the right to privacy under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. It is not appropriate for inclusion in the Bill.Part 5 deals with religious hatred. We regret that reports that the Government were intending to omit the new crime of incitement to religious hatred have turned out to be untrue. We already have a crime of incitement to racial hatred. Many support the extension of that offence to cover religious hatred—including the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I agree that provision should be contained in a separate Bill. There are many issues to debate. Can we be sure that the new crime would not interfere unduly with freedom of speech? People must remain free to criticise and even ridicule others' beliefs. We cannot ban Monty Python's XLife of Brian", which caused offence to many Christians, or impose our own fatwah on XThe Satanic Verses".
Should such a measure stop at race and religion or extend to other hate crimes, such as homophobia? Should we couple the introduction of the crime of incitement to religious hatred with the abolition of the outdated crime of blasphemy? There are mixed views on the merits of the new crime. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, speaks for many Muslims who support it but some Muslim groups fear that the new crime may be targeted not at protecting them but at being against them. They should be consulted. It is wrong to introduce such a new crime without full consultation or any consultation.
Parts 10 and 11 give the police extended powers to search, examine, fingerprint and photograph suspects without their consent and to insist on the removal of disguises. Those powers are not limited to terrorist suspects. This is not the time to go into the merits of such proposals. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester spoke powerfully, as did the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed. They are plainly a major extension of police powers going far beyond terrorism and are wholly inappropriate for rushed legislation such as this.
Part 11 is similar. The retention of communication data is useful for terrorist investigation, but Part 11 goes far beyond terrorism. Again, this is a contentious issue. Unless Part 11 is limited to terrorist crimes, it should not be in the Bill.
Clauses 110 and 111 enable agreements on third pillar matters to be enacted by secondary legislation. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, of which I am a member, has published a highly critical report. I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Waddington and Lord Brennan, on the subject. Third pillar agreements can include matters of great public importance that are obviously inappropriate for secondary legislation.
As everybody knows, we on these Benches are strong supporters of the European Union. But we do not support those clauses. They do not extend the powers of the European Union over the United
Kingdom. They could not do that, because all third pillar agreements require the unanimous consent of member states. The clauses extend the powers of the executive over Parliament because they deprive Parliament of the right to consider new legislation by the normal parliamentary processes. The comparison with Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972 is flawed and unsound. The clauses should be removed from the Bill.Part 4 is the most controversial aspect of the Bill. It is unquestionably targeted on terrorism. I understand the Government's problem. There is a small group of people who have no right to be in the United Kingdom and whose presence may be a danger to national security. They cannot be deported or extradited to a country that may execute or torture them. Let us assume that it is also not possible to find a third country that is willing to accept them and to which they are willing to go. In a few cases, I do not think that we should rule out detention as a possible option, but the controls on that must be extremely strict. They are far from strict enough in the Bill.
At least four necessary safeguards do not appear in the Bill. First, I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, and many other speakers that judicial review must not be excluded. It may be that the right of appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission provides sufficient legal protection to the detainee. If the courts believe that, any application to the ordinary courts for judicial review will be rejected. However, the possibility of judicial review should never be excluded. This is an extremely bad precedent, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, said. If the Government get away with it this time, they will be tempted to try again. Judicial review must be retained as an essential element.
Secondly, cases should be reviewed at intervals of not more than three months, as opposed to the six-month period proposed. Thirdly, the sunset clause for Part 4 should not have to wait for five years. The period should be one year so that we can reconsider the whole matter as soon as possible as part of new primary legislation if the Government wish to continue with it. A year is twice as long as was provided for in the Act passed by my noble friend Lord Jenkins in 1974.
Fourthly, wherever possible a detainee should be charged and tried in the United Kingdom rather than kept in detention without trial. This is a very important consideration. I believe that the United Kingdom courts should be given jurisdiction to try all terrorist offences wherever they are committed, whoever commits them and whoever the victims are.
The present law is a patchwork of jurisdictions. The United Kingdom courts have universal jurisdiction over some terrorist offences; for example, under Section 62 of the Terrorism Act 2000 over acts of terrorism involving the use of explosives or biological or chemical weapons. But the courts do not have jurisdiction over all terrorist offences. The United Kingdom courts probably would not have jurisdiction
to try anyone who planned or assisted the 11th September atrocities unless that assistance had been given in the United Kingdom. I believe that terrorist offences should be crimes of universal jurisdiction as piracy has long been and as other crimes such as torture now are. None of these safeguards would endanger national security. We shall be unable to give support to Part 4 of the Bill unless those safeguards are added. I also agree with my noble friends Lord Dholakia and Lord Russell that it is wrong to deny access to the asylum procedures for people who are suspected of terrorism and that Clauses 34 and 35 should go from the Bill.I add this: the idea that the European Convention on Human Rights is something which we can leave and return to at will, as suggested by the noble Lords, Lord Dixon-Smith and Lord Waddington, is completely unacceptable and unrealistic. That is especially so if the purpose is to allow suspects to be sent back to death or torture. That would be far worse than keeping people here in detention. I agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, said on the issue.
The Government should be ashamed of this Bill. It introduces detention without trial, admittedly in special circumstances, but without enough safeguards. It extends police powers not only over terrorism but over ordinary crime. It extends the powers of the state to obtain and use information over a wide spectrum and for purposes not limited to terrorism. It gives the executive power to push important legislation through Parliament by statutory instrument. The Bill does all these things on the basis of legislation which has been considered for no more than three days in the other place and is being considered in an extreme hurry in your Lordships' House. This is not the way to deal with important legislation which is contentious and much of which does not warrant the urgency which would justify this exceptional procedure. The Government do not deserve an easy ride and I do not believe that they will get one in your Lordships' House.
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