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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, as regards the noble Lord's first point, in our view ACT rewarded dividends and diverted money from proper investment. I compare the position in the United
States with the position in this country as regards the percentage of GDP going to dividends and investment. While ACT existed, the UK figure went up from 3 to 6 per cent. However, the United States figure went up from about 3 to 4 per cent. That process occurred at the price of investment in our economy. We believed that ACT deformed the tax system. What matters is the health of the economy and that, in turn, depends on proper investment in the economy on which, in the long term, pension robustness relies.As to the noble Lord's second comment about the #6 million for the rapid response unit, I take the point about a limited sum of money. However, that is only one part of a wide range of strategies. We seek to respond to the situation of sudden redundancies, major redundancies and so on. The initiative is additional to the employment opportunities resource, the New Deal and the work we are doing on Jobcentre Plus and the like. If the noble Lord has concerns about any particular area he thinks is underfunded, I shall be happy to consider them.
Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I too congratulate the Minister and the Government on having addressed some long-lasting concerns that many of us have had about vulnerable groups in our society such as parents of disabled children and ante and post-natal care for the poorest families through Sure Start. I refer to a group of people who have always been marginalised; namely, those who have saved. It is very much in the culture of our older generation to be thrifty and to save even when that is difficult. For years they have been penalised for doing so. I am delighted that that situation will not continue. I have not had time to study the measures in detail, but the five-year assessment may do much to remedy that situation. However, the means of obtaining such payments is still very complicated and needs to be simplified.
For many years—in particular, when I was with Age Concern—I worried about the low take-up of means-tested benefits. But I agree with the Government's view that the differences in pensioner incomes are now so great that it is better to target those. In my view, it is most important to get rid of the stigma associated with take-up. I believe that the announcement about the pension credit, which I have been awaiting with enormous interest, may deal with that. I hope very much that it will.
My final point concerns the help that the Minister has announced for unemployed people. I hope that, from now on, we can assume that the care, advice and support that will go to unemployed people who have the greatest difficulty in obtaining jobs will be extended to measures for those over the age of 50. Such people represent a very vulnerable group of unemployed people.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, welcomes what we are doing. She and, behind her, Age Concern have obviously been very active in trying to ensure that we develop pension policies that focus on those most in need.
The noble Baroness talked about how people might obtain the benefit. She is right. At present, approximately three-quarters of pensioners deal with what we used to call Xbenefit offices" by telephone, which is a more acceptable method. There is also Xtele-claiming". All the systems which Age Concern is helping us to pilot are showing a very successful take-up. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that the key to effective targeting is to remove stigma. Once we have done so, I believe that we can be confident that the resources will reach those who most need them.
The second point raised by the noble Baroness related to our help to people over the age of 50. She is absolutely right. That is why we have developed the New Deal for the over-50s. One interesting figure came up when we were dealing with a previous Bill. I was much struck by the situation relating to widows and widowers. Of those over the age of 55, fractionally more widows than widowers are in work. Behind that lies the fact that middle-aged women find it easier to remain in or return to the labour market than do middle-aged men, in particular if they are manual workers. That is why we have been developing new deals and pilot schemes. We want to ensure that the talents and richness that such people have to offer is honed to fit today's economic climate.
Baroness Howells of St Davids: My Lords, we have listened to a very buoyant and uplifting discourse on pensions. However, I want to raise one point which is seen as a matter of injustice by the Caribbean people who came to work in this country, giving more than 30 or 40 years of service. Discrimination still exists against those who have managed to return to live in their home country. Whatever pension they have when they leave this country, they must live on it for the rest of their lives. Over the years, no adjustment has been made to the level of such pensions .
This country is disadvantaged by not adjusting those pensions because the people who receive them have to return to this country for any medical treatment that they need. Their counterparts who remain in this country receive increases in their pension each year. But for those who return home, the level of the pension stays the same. I know that this is a subject which creates a very deep hole for the Government because people from other countries who have never worked here go away and, at the age of 60, claim pensions as citizens.
The pensioners who have given years of service feel that they are badly discriminated against by a state which does not allow an increase in their pensions. In addition, the countries in which they live have a basic standard of living. If we are talking about global poverty, then this is a group which is being penalised in a way that they feel is unjust. I am sorry to raise the matter at this stage, but I believe that it is the only time that I can usefully do so in the House. I repeat that the people to whom I refer are suffering greatly from such a loss.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I sympathise with many of the points that my noble
friend Lady Howells makes. However, various basic sets of arrangements are in place. One set is with the EU in which mutuality of pensions follows from the arrangements for the mobility of labour. Those pensions are automatically adjusted.Secondly, we have bilateral arrangements with certain Commonwealth countries and other countries. They are usually of long-standing, most having been made in the 1950s and 1960s. Incidentally, that includes some Caribbean countries. I believe that I am right in saying that there has been no further development of bilateral arrangements, either under the previous administration or ours, since the early 1980s. However, that bilateral relationship does not apply to other countries, some of which were mentioned by my noble friend.
At the end of the day, a judgment must be made about priorities and cost. The unfreezing of overseas pensions would have to apply not only to Caribbean countries; it would have to include South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and so on, where far more ex-British residents live. That would cost #300 million or more. It is the Government's judgment that that does not constitute a high claim on our existing priorities, which are to help the pensioners in greatest need.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, pursuant to the first question asked by my noble friend Lord Hodgson, the Prime Minister at least twice in another place defended the removal of ACT tax credits in the summer of 1997 by saying that the subsequent behaviour of the stock market justified the move. Since, in the past two years, the stock market has fallen by almost one-quarter and, on the basis of the Prime Minister's logic, if the stock market continues to fall towards its 1997 level, can we anticipate the restoration of tax credits? That would be a profound relief to pension fund trustees throughout the country and, subsequently, to their pensioners.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I believe that we have discussed this matter several times in the House. I have no indication whatever that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is minded to make any adjustment in this respect. However, that is for him to determine. If he should be so inclined, he will of course have the opportunity to do so in the subsequent Budget.
However, I repeat: it was the judgment of my right honourable friend that ACT rewarded dividends and diverted money from investments and that that deformed the economy. As I have stated in this House, it is also the case that the value of ACT was equivalent to approximately one-tenth of the difference a decent manager would make to the fund. In other words, what really matters is the health of the economy and the competence of the management of the fund rather than artificial tax privileges, which distort and deform investment in the economy on which pensions must be based.
Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill
4.48 p.m.
Schedule 1 [Forfeiture of terrorist cash]:
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 5:
- Page 75, line 11, after Xcurrency" insert Xwhether legal tender or not".
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 5, I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 6 to 15 and 17 to 19. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, will speak to Amendments Nos. 20 to 22.
The amendments are largely inspired by the Law Society of Scotland. Amendment No. 5 extends the definition of Xcash" for the purposes of Schedule 1. It seeks to ensure that banknotes which are not regarded as legal tender, including counterfeit currency, will come within the ambit of the Bill in relation to forfeiture, seizure and detention of terrorist cash.
Amendment No. 6 probes the circumstances in which it would not be reasonably practicable to seize only the part of the cash which relates to terrorist cash. We would appreciate clarification of the circumstances in which the Government envisage that terrorist cash could not be separated from the whole.
Amendments Nos. 7, 10 and 17 seek to extend the initial period of detention of seized cash from 48 hours to eight days. In our view, authorised officers should be given sufficient time in which to investigate the origin and intended use of such cash. The proposed eight-day period would provide a reasonable time-scale within which to conduct such inquiries and may prevent unnecessary applications for an extension of the detention period.
Amendment No. 8 would ensure that those persons with,
- Xan interest in the detained cash",
Amendment No. 9 seeks to ensure that the suspect and any third party have a right of appeal and the means to be able to make it. A seizure of funds can have adverse effects on innocent third parties and on legitimate businesses, as well as on the suspect. In our view, there should be a right to representation, funded by legal aid, where necessary, and rights of appeal when the property is seized or subject to a restraint order. The seizure provisions should be subject to PACE codes of practice.
Amendment No. 13 seeks to ensure that the civil procedure to forfeit detained cash cannot take place until,
- Xcriminal proceedings have been concluded or a decision has been taken by",
Amendment No. 14 seeks to make it clear that Xforfeiture proceedings" in this part of the Bill are Xcivil proceedings". It is vital for the nature of the proceedings to be clear in the Bill; that will ensure that an appropriate procedure is used and that the correct regulations are applied for the purposes of legal aid.
Amendment No. 15 provides for Xrules of court" to be made to specify the practice and procedure to be adopted in appeals proceedings. Specific provision should be made in the Bill to allow rules of court to be developed for appeal proceedings. Unless that enabling power is included, no provision can be made to govern the procedure of the hearings.
Amendment No. 18 probes the circumstances in which it would be considered appropriate for a court to award compensation under paragraph 10(4) of Schedule 1. If,
- Xthe applicant has suffered loss as a result of the detention of the cash",
Finally, Amendment No. 19 would extend the circumstances in which a person will be held to have obtained property through terrorism. As the Bill is currently drafted, it takes no account of the situation in which a person has acquired property in consequence of an act of terrorism. For example, the situation could arise in which a terrorist purchases or disposes of shares in a company that is subsequently adversely affected by an act of terrorism. That person may benefit from the purchase or disposal, depending on fluctuations in the stock market, as a result of that terrorist activity. Property that is acquired Xin consequence of" the planned act of terrorism should be subject to the Bill's provisions. The amendment would ensure that such property was covered.
I am greatly reassured by the fact that Amendment No. 5 and many of the amendments that are grouped with it are supported by the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie. I beg to move.
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