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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do not know how the noble Viscount can avoid asking the authority to judge whether terrorism is being searched for or not, because its ability to disclose information depends on whether the approach falls within the scope of the clause. That is why it is not enough for me to have a flash on my shoulder saying, Xanti-terrorist squad" and it is not enough to say that the offence that I am seeking to uncover is a terrorist offence. All sorts of other offences are—to use the jargon—the gateways to terrorism. Those who are looking for terrorists have to go through other routes in order to discover those terrorists.
I have accepted interruptions, which I do not resent in any way, but I want to finish my earlier argument about why the matter can become so difficult. We cannot separate the matter from what public officials are able to disclose or the need for them not to be restricted in what they are able to disclose. Let us consider, for example, overseas investigations. How will public officials assess whether such investigations relate to terrorist offences? The amendments would prevent those officials from disclosing where they could not satisfy themselves that overseas investigations were being carried out as part of terrorist investigations.
We are talking about the ability to disclose, not about what they are told. Serious criminal offences, such as drug dealing and money laundering, are often fundamentally bound up with terrorism. It is
important that public officials are able to disclose information related to those offences in order to assist in the fight against terrorism.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I thank the Minister for giving way. Does he not appreciate that these dilemmas, the boundaries and definitions of statutory entitlements and duties, are the everyday experience of magistrates, judges and police? If he had permitted the introduction of the authorisation procedure that we pressed on the Government half an hour ago, the problems of which he is making a chimera would not be there at all.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I shall ask the noble Lord a question in return, which I shall try to make rhetorical. Is the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, not aware that all of the problems which he and everyone else are introducing into this legislation are ones which exist with existing legislation? All of these powers of disclosure exist for criminal proceedings. What is happening here is that they are being extended to criminal investigations. What on earth is wrong with that? It is in the early stages of catching terrorists that we need this power of disclosure. That is the change in this part of the Bill.
The Earl of Onslow: I shall answer the question the Minister asks. What is wrong is that this is emergency legislation concerning terrorism, not general legislation concerning criminality. That is the exact answer. It is not a chimera, which I believe is a Greek image which vanishes. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, is not in his place. He would certainly tell me if that is right. That is the difference. That is the point on which those of us on this side of the House take a different line to the noble Lord, who is doing his level best. I do not think that it is good enough. He is doing the best he can. That is the argument which we are trying to get through to him.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: If the objection is so fundamental, why did not the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, vote against Second Reading? Why does he not vote against Third Reading instead of bringing this up at every single point on every single amendment? If the objection is as fundamental as that and impervious to the argument we put forward on the amendments before the Committee, there is nothing else I can do to persuade him. I shall try to finish my argument as quickly as I can.
In practical terms the criteria set out in Part 2, with which we have already dealt, provide a clearer basis for action than terrorism, which allows for a more subjective interpretation. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, asks for wider consultation and further consideration. Frankly, that is a delaying tactic. This is not an issue which merits or justifies delay. We are two-and-a-half months away from the worst terrorist attack which has taken place in the western world within a century. Historians would go further back. We have to respond in a timely way. We see investigations take place in Spain, Belgium, Britain,
the United States, and all over the world. Are we to be the one country in the world which does not have the powers to pursue those investigations properly? I find it inconceivable that that is what noble Lords would wish to do.I turn briefly to the General Medical Council. Under the Health Act 1999 and health legislation there is some information held by the health service which fulfils the qualifications in this legislation. In other words, it is covered by the existing statutory restrictions on disclosure and is information collected under the statutory powers. It is true that under certain circumstances under statutory powers the Audit Commission can demand certain patient records. However, I understand that they are demanded in statistical form rather than that which is identifiable to individual patients. To the very limited extent that health information is collected under statutory powers it is covered by this legislation. It does not cover doctors. Whatever may be the case for other purposes, I give the assurance that doctors are not public officials for this purpose. The information that they hold on medical records is not covered.
At present individual patient records can be disclosed if they are required for criminal proceedings. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, fairly read out the ruling of the General Medical Council about what can be disclosed for serious crime. She defined that clearly. Terrorism is a serious crime. The GMC's agreement and the ethical standards that it applies to medical staff will be extended from criminal proceedings, which it accepts at the moment, to criminal investigations.
If there is some doubt about the role of the Audit Commission's work we shall look at that between now and later stages of the Bill. Even in the event of medical records in the hands of the Audit Commission becoming subject to one of the statutory restrictions which we are modifying, that does not necessarily mean that disclosure will be permitted. The Data Protection Act, the Human Rights Act and the duty of confidence will apply. If the information in question is confidential then disclosure will be difficult. This is not a question of the police coming and asking for records and trawling for whatever they want to know even if they do not know what they want to know.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I thank the Minister for giving way. How on earth can the Minister make that assertion? He has no control over the police. The police on occasions do things that they should not. They have obsessions that they should not have. How can he say that?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That is an extraordinary question. The police have statutory duties for the pursuit of crime. The fact that I have described the limitations on what the police can do does not mean to say that there are not those who break the law, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is suggesting.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: That is my very point. It would not involve a breakage of the law because these powers are so wide that unscrupulous or ill-advised or unwise use of them could be permissible under the legislation, which is what we are trying to prevent.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have risked—if not worse than that—wearying the House by repeating the substantial constraints that there are, both legal and in the drafting of the legislation. We land up with the position where the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, does not believe me. There is not very much that I can do about that. I have stated the position. I hope that I have given the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, the assurance that she sought. I know that I have not convinced those who want to restrict the whole of this part of the Bill in this way. But I put it to them that the greater good of the international pursuit of terrorism and our participation in that deserves some consideration.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: There are very few constraints in the way that this clause is drafted. It is drafted in the widest possible terms. However, I am very grateful to the Minister for his saying that over the next few days before we come to Report stage he will consider the expression that I have used in my amendment which involves terrorism.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, was here before dinner. When speaking to Amendment No. 48A I set out precisely the very extensive constraints on the clause and the way in which it has been written as represented in public. I suggest that before commenting further the noble Lord reads Hansard.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I think that I was here—I referred to it as the Grand National course that the Minister will require. In answer to my point, the Minister said that it will not be enough for a person to have a flash on his shoulder reading Xanti-terrorist squad" or to say to a person from whom he is demanding information, XI am investigating terrorism". Yet of course any person who goes to an authority for such information must demonstrate that he has a right to that information. As the Bill is drafted and as the current provisions for criminal proceedings—
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