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Lord Filkin: My Lords, the noble Lord, as a resident of Berkshire, makes an interesting point. It is clearly an operational matter for the Chief Constable. The Government's commitment is to continue the reduction in cases of drink driving which has been experienced during recent years. As noble Lords will know, the number of cases has declined from some 30,000 to some 18,000 in the current year.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords—
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords—
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, does the Minister agree that if British drivers stuck to the speed limit as it appears in the middle or at the end of a road, there would be no need for humps and bumps in the road and there would be a great reduction in local authority expenditure on roads and bumps?
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I agree that if that were the case we would have a significant reduction in the number of road humps and in deaths—but we would probably already be in paradise if those circumstances had come about. To be serious about the issue, some 1,100 deaths and 12,000 serious injuries each year are predominantly associated with excessive speed. One hopes that in time we shall reach the situation that has occurred in relation to drink driving; that speeding is no longer seen as socially acceptable.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, arising from the question asked by my noble friend Lord Ferrers, does the Minister recall that his noble friend Lord Macdonald, when happily in charge of transport, took powers on behalf of the Government to deal with the menace of people who persist on digging holes in the road without caring a jot for the inconvenience and danger they cause to others? I want to know whether the Government have ever used those powers and to express the hope that they will.
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am speaking from recollection rather than from recent reading, but I understand that the Government have moved forward in trying to make it possible to introduce penalties when operators exceed the nominated time periods
they have set for roadworks. I very much hope that local authorities will be extremely vigorous in enforcing those penalties when operators do so.
Viscount Simon: My Lords, is my noble friend aware—I suspect that he is—that research indicates that one's attention is adversely affected by using a mobile telephone, irrespective of whether it is hand-held or not, for up to 10 minutes after the conversation has concluded? I go out with various police forces on traffic patrol up to three dozen times a year. Is the Minister aware that every single officer at the sharp end wants to see specific legislation to ban the use of mobile telephones while driving?
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am aware that such use affects the attention span of the driver. That is why the Government's position is quite clear that people should not use mobile telephones. Many other things happen within cars which also affect the attention span of drivers—and I shall not develop the point. However, as regards some such issues, one is dealing with the balance of risk.
We are aware that some European countries recently introduced mobile telephone legislation and we shall monitor the situation very carefully in order to see whether it informs us, in particular in relation to enforceability and impact.
Downview Prison
3.24 p.m.
Lord Dholakia asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What are their views on the report from the board of visitors on Downview prison.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, we welcome the board's report which acknowledged a lot of good work at Downview and we will be giving it our full response shortly. We note particularly its concerns about the speed of the prison's change of role to a women's prison. That was necessitated by a steep rise in the female prison population and work is under way to address the board's concerns.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, can the Minister explain why, when the crime rate is going down, the prison population is at its highest ever at more than 68,000? That includes 4,000 women, which is also a high figure. Does the Minister subscribe to his own independent Board of Visitors' report that Downview prison, which had the best drug rehabilitation programme, is now in a shambles; that inmate facilities are inadequate; that staff do not receive adequate training; and that there have been four suicide attempts?
Will the Minister explain where within the system we have produced a discrepancy which imprisons a large number of women offenders who overall commit less crime and yet are subjected to custodial penalties?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, it sounds like a paradox, but the answer to the noble Lord's first question about why, when crime figures are going down, the prison population is going up is that the one may be following the other. If there are persistent offenders who have been caught, they go to prison. In this particular case there has been a phenomenal increase in the number of women sent to prison in the last period. It is currently some 4,050—that is the figure I have for Monday this week. A combination of factors is responsible for that; there is no one single factor. Many of the offences are drug-related.
There is a difficulty and we are having to increase the prison estate for women. However, the Government do not have a fixed number of people who should be in prison. The courts are doing the sentencing and we have requested that, where possible, those who do the sentencing look at alternatives to prison. We are seeking alternatives to prison. We have to be very careful about, for example, home detention curfews. We have asked governors to look at them and there is a risk involved, it is true. Nevertheless, there has been a large increase. Faced with that, the Prison Service had no choice but to make more emergency places available for women in prison. It will not allow overcrowding but it allows less overcrowding for women than for males. That urgent action has to be taken.
I do not accept that Downview prison is a shambles. There have been difficulties and they are being addressed. We regret the problems caused for the men who were moved out of there because it was a training prison. However, it was the best available prison in the best available location to meet the needs of the increase in the number of women prisoners.
Lord Acton: My Lords, does my noble friend recall that the Lord Chief Justice, in an address to the Prison Reform Trust on 31st January this year, said:
- XThere should be a Board responsible for women in the criminal justice system. Its responsibilities in relation to women should be similar to that of the Youth Justice Board. It should regard its primary responsibility to be to contain the growth of the women prison population"?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not know the details of that. It sounds an incredibly sensible suggestion to me but I suspect that somewhere it has been sat on. I shall have a problem for giving that answer because it sounds so sensible.
I myself have visited only one women's prison since I have been at the Home Office—it was an unannounced visit—and I came away wanting to bulldoze the place down. I was depressed because of the conditions there, the quality and lack of activity and other things, and because of what some of the people there told me about what they were in there for. That comes back to those who do the sentencing. Within the last 12 months a judge found it necessary to send a thalidomide quadriplegic to prison over arguing
about a debt for a couple of hundred quid. There was a terrible problem when that female arrived at the prison. What was the judge thinking about when he did that, I ask myself. It is that kind of issue that we ask the sentencers to think about. Is sending someone to prison the best possible sentence, bearing in mind the circumstances of the case?
Lord Elton: My Lords, clearly the Minister is in touch with real life. Can I ask him to encourage his department to examine how much money is spent on preventing young children entering into crime before they are old enough to do so? I include young women in that, and refer in particular to those young people excluded from school. Does the Minister agree that, if a larger budget were directed to addressing those issues, less would need to be spent by the Home Office, which would be encouraging for his department?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. I cannot give the figures off the top of my head, but many programmes aimed at reducing the numbers of young offenders have been put in place by the Home Office, working in co-operation with local authorities and other bodies involved in the criminal justice system. We seek to cut out the problem at the earliest possible age because we know that such intervention can have a massive impact in later life. As I have said, numerous programmes have been put into place to that effect. Over time we hope that they will be successful; only time will tell. I can assure the noble Lord that we do not have to bring forward crime prevention programmes for young people. They are actively under way already.
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