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Lord Thomas of Gresford: The framework the Government have chosen of using immigration procedures to control international terrorism clearly does not apply to British citizens who live in Northern Ireland nor, I believe, to citizens of the Irish Republic. It can only apply to people from outside. Consequently this is not an instrument for dealing with terrorism from that quarter.
In the spirit of probing and inquiry that always exists on these Benches, I should like to know from the Minister whether these procedures will cover, for example, a Basque-ETA terrorist who came to Wales to fund a separatist movement in such a way that would disrupt not just Wales, but the whole of the United Kingdom? Would a person in such circumstances be regarded as an international terrorist who would be subject to these procedures?
Lord Glentoran: I do not like to play party politics with Northern Ireland matters and today I am speaking from the Back Benches.
This provision is of particular importance to Northern Ireland and a number of issues arise from it which give me grave concern. I flagged up these problems both privately and semi-publicly the other night to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal, who now speaks for the Government on Northern Ireland matters. I let it be known before the Bill arrived in your Lordships' House that this was an area of concern to those of us involved in Northern Ireland matters.
Over the few years I had the privilege to speak for the Opposition on Northern Ireland affairs, I had a great deal of discussion with and received much co-operation from the Government. This point was well flagged, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, in the Commons, and the whole of the Commons, other than those whipped, supported this amendment or something similar. I am therefore suspicious that once again the Government have a secret agenda for Northern Ireland.
We have quite a lot of legislation coming forward. I have been duly warned by the Lord Privy Seal that most of it will be contentious and, for some of us, difficult to accept. That is the way of life with Northern Ireland affairs. But something like this, which concerns the whole kingdom and is part of a world-wide international war against terrorism—as the President of the United States and our Prime Minister said—makes it incomprehensible that once again our Prime Minister is looking for a way not to keep a promise to the people of Northern Ireland. Is this yet
another promise that he and his party know they cannot keep? Is this just a sideways move to let the Government off the hook?Logically, there is absolutely no sense in this clause. It has been said to me in the corridors that the Government's interpretation is different from mine and those on our side. In the Northern Ireland terrorist situation we have a series of terrorist groups. If we relate them to this clause, we will find that those who are on ceasefire—the Xgood" boys—are those who are most visibly seen as international terrorists. There is no doubt about their credentials. They have been seen in Colombia, in Libya, as was said by my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith, and in Turkey; they have been seen everywhere. We know that they have been training people from other terrorist organisations. We are not certain but have strong beliefs that they have had close links with the Al'Qaeda organisation. However, there are dissident groups in Northern Ireland who do not relate to anybody, and that includes the loyalist groups. They are bad news terrorists. As I understand it, if this amendment is not accepted, they will be treated as a different type of terrorist.
Noble Lords may remember that during a number of debates in this House, from the Dispatch Box I have accused the Government of trying to set up two classes of terrorism. Again that fear is coming to a head. I support the Government as much as I can in all that they have done and are doing in Ireland, and my party supports them. I listened to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I am very sorry that somewhere betwixt and between there has been a complete change of mind. I do not know what has gone on between the usual channels.
4.30 p.m.
Lord McNally: In the Commons nothing approaching a debate like this took place on how the clauses applied to Northern Ireland. Rather than rushing to judgment I hope that Ministers and the Opposition read this debate, including the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. Such a debate did not take place in the Commons because of the truncated nature of proceedings.
Lord Glentoran: I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. I conclude by asking the Minister at least to follow the lead of the noble Lord, McNally: to discuss the matter further with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Office and those in the Home Office.
Earl Russell: During the time I have attended this Chamber, I have known many Members of the noble Lord's party whom I have regarded as great ornaments of this House. Two names come to mind: Lord Whitelaw and Lord Joseph. Both had the distinction of being capable of saying in this Chamber, XI have changed my mind". That was one of the things for which I most admired them. If my right honourable friend Mr Kennedy and my noble friend Lord McNally develop that same ability I should have thought that that is a reason for respecting them rather than the opposite.
For myself, I shall take a little persuading that the amendment should be accepted, partly for the reasons outlined by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. The whole framework of the Bill is designed to deal with immigration law, asylum law, international money transactions and aircraft. There are domestic terrorists other than the IRA who pose dangers to many of us, in particular to people in universities. I wish to see that dealt with. I do not think that it is effectively dealt with within the compass of the Bill. In Northern Ireland I believe—and I choose my verb with great care—that there is still a peace process in progress. I do not want to risk disturbing it by further legislation. If it should continue to be in process, it would give me very great pleasure.
Lord Crickhowell: I do not intend to follow my noble friend Lord Glentoran on the subject of Northern Ireland although I have the utmost sympathy with what he said.
I have written in the margin of Clause 21(4) almost exactly the same question as was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. Perhaps I was prompted by the memory of a bomb placed in my son's bedroom some years ago. If some nationalist or language fanatic, perhaps linked with Basque terrorists who had similar objectives, were again to pursue a similar campaign, does that come under the definitions in Clause 21(4)?
We have had huge demonstrations in recent years against capitalism. What happens if a small group, based on feelings hostile to capitalism, starts placing bombs in the City of London? I am not sure whether or not that is,
- Xconcerned only with the affairs of a part of the United Kingdom".
As regards the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, I hope that he will give us credit if we make up our minds on the subject of the debate. I hope he will listen carefully to the arguments. If he is not satisfied—I wish that he had explained his attitude somewhat more fully instead of devoting so much time to attacking my party—I hope that he will not hesitate on Report to vote against the Government. He indicated that he might. But when the issues are so clear and important, I am surprised that he was not more explicit about his eventual attitude. But I live in hope. I hope that we shall have him in the Lobbies with us if the Government do not produce satisfactory answers to the questions which have been asked.
Lord King of Bridgwater: I share the concerns which motivate the amendment. I do not understand the
point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, about Xa part" of the United Kingdom. Clearly, if we are dealing with Irish republican terrorism and, to an extent, loyalist terrorism, it has taken place in every part of the United Kingdom. In no sense has it been restricted to one part.If there is concern that there may be sensitivities in the light of the current situation, these are discretionary powers for the Home Secretary. He does not have to exercise them. It is up to him whether he uses them. To have the prohibition to remove the power from one particular area seems to me an unnecessary limitation.
However, I was provoked to speak by reading the helpful Explanatory Notes provided by the Government which state:
- XDomestic terrorism is excluded from the certification process because the Government has concluded that the nature of the public emergency is such that it would not be justified in applying the extended immigration detention powers to those involved in such terrorism".
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