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Lord Monson: Was the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, right to suppose that a citizen of the Republic of Ireland would not be caught by Clause 21(4)? From my admittedly inexpert scrutiny of Clauses 21 to 23 it would seem that an Irish citizen could be caught if he were involved international terrorism. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that one way or another.
Lord Marlesford: Last month I spent a few days in the United States. I discovered how appalled the Americans were to have been introduced to the world of international terrorism. I also found how appalled they were to realise that for many years they had been contributing towards the financing of terrorism in the United Kingdom. That realisation is widespread.
I believe it is not unconnected with that realisation that the Sinn Fein-IRA has decided to make a move towards decommissioning—somewhat token though it may be. If the Government were not to accept the amendment, or something like it, in due course Sinn Fein-IRA would again be able to go to the United States flourishing what it would claim to be a clean bill of health from Her Majesty's Government and re-start its collection of funds. If it does not revert to terrorism, I suspect that it would have nothing to fear from this Bill. If it does, surely one can only echo the words of the Pope when he went to Ireland some years ago: XMurder is murder".
Lord Goodhart: I wish to take up and expand upon a point made by the noble Lords, Lord Maginnis and Lord King. The full title of the United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If we have an organisation which wishes to separate those two constituent parts from each other—Northern Ireland and Great Britain—how could that be described as being an organisation which is
concerned only with the affairs of a part of the United Kingdom? If it is an organisation which is concerned with the affairs of the whole of the United Kingdom, is it not already a case of international terrorism within the meaning of subsection (4) of Clause 21? I should like to hear the answer to that question.
Lord Rooker: This has been an interesting debate but it goes well beyond the central issue. Although I realise that the other place did not have much time to discuss the matter, it is apparent from some of the points Members of the Committee have made that they are aware of the unusual foundation of the legislation; namely, immigration legislation. That is the central issue we must keep in front of us. We are dealing with immigration legislation. For that reason and that reason alone, it is not possible for UK citizens to be treated in the way we are discussing as we could not deport them anywhere. They are UK citizens. The same rules could not apply. People who are not UK citizens have no right to be in the country other than the rights they have to work and so on.
Lord Rooker: No, I want to continue. I shall give way to the noble Earl shortly. The central issue is that we cannot deport our own citizens. That has to be kept in mind. We are using the immigration powers. I shall try to deal with all the questions that were asked. I believe it was the noble Lord, Lord Monson, who referred to my next point. Citizens of the Republic of Ireland, for practical and legal purposes, are treated as UK citizens. We have a common area. There are no barriers between us. We are free to come and go between, or to work in, the two countries. There are no immigration restrictions as between the two countries.
Lord Rooker: If I may complete the point. Citizens of the Republic of Ireland are not affected by this legislation because they are treated as UK citizens. I do not want to be misunderstood in the Republic of Ireland. Everyone understands that we share the British Isles, if I can put it that way. As I say, there are no barriers between us. Therefore, the citizens of the Republic of Ireland would not be affected by this legislation.
The Earl of Onslow: I have two points. First of all, this matter was settled by the Ireland Act 1949. When Costello took the Irish out of the Commonwealth they were deemed by Act of Parliament to be treated as British citizens. I am just briefing the noble Lord on that. I refer to the interesting difference between the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, yesterday when he said that the scope of the Bill was quite wide, which he defended, and what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is now saying; namely, that it is solely to do with immigration. It seems to me that the Government have not got their act together on that.
Lord Dixon-Smith: Before the Minister develops his argument too much further it might help take matters forward if I say that I entirely accept the point that he has just made. I do so with no difficulty whatsoever as the amendments that we have tabled are not designed in any way either to attack or to erode that situation. The amendments that we have tabled are designed simply to remove from the Bill a distinction which would be better if it were not there. It is as simple as that. We accept that the Bill in that regard is established to capture terrorists who otherwise would be subject to our immigration law. We do not have any difficulty with that; we are dealing with a very specific and narrow point. I should like the narrow point to be addressed rather than the point which the Minister is addressing, which we do not think is affected in any way by the amendments we have tabled.
4.45 p.m.
Lord Rooker: I hope that I shall address all the points that have been made. I do not criticise any as being narrow. However, the fact remains that the basis for introducing the legislation are the events of September 11th. We made that absolutely clear in the debate on derogation. Events preceding those of September 11th do not give us grounds for derogation. The Committee may argue that the Bill goes a little wider than that and that we are closing loopholes. We shall debate that matter. However, we must justify what we are doing in terms of terrorist threats. The international perspective has changed since September 11th, but the domestic perspective has not. We would have had no right to derogate from the European Convention on Human Rights in terms of domestic terrorism as the perspective on domestic terrorism has not changed since September 11th. However, by common consent, the international perspective has changed. That is a central plank. We are not trying to act retrospectively.
Lord Rooker: May I proceed? I shall give way to the noble Baroness. Some of the remarks that have been made revealed almost a resentment that the IRA and its political allies have participated in the peace process to the extent that they have. I do not accept that. There is a peace process under way. It may be inadequate from the standpoint of some people, but in terms of the domestic terrorism from which we have suffered for many years, a peace process is under way. That is the reality. It is not fast or deep enough, but people have their own views on it. However, no one can gainsay the fact that there is a peace process. As regards events before September 11th, we do not have any grounds for doing what we seek to do in this Bill, particularly in regard to the derogation from the European convention. That has to be the case. We are not in a position—
Baroness Buscombe: I hate to interrupt the Minister but I listened to his comments on the XToday"
programme this morning on the radio. He said quite clearly, XI will be bringing forward amendments to change the definition of international terrorism". Will the Minister tell me why he said that?
Lord Rooker: I have not seen the transcript. I know that I do not speak proper English, but I referred to the definition of an international terrorist. I know what I said. The fact of the matter is that the amendments are on the Marshalled List. It is not a question of bringing them forward. The Xlinks" amendment is there for everyone to see. It is printed.
Baroness Buscombe: I make the point because millions of people listen to the XToday" programme. It is their understanding, having listened to the Minister, that there will be changes to this very vital part of this very vital Bill, in which case they are being misled. That is all I say.
Lord Rooker: The noble Baroness is making a mountain out of a molehill. The Xlinks" issue was flagged up in the other place. I refer to the third limb of the definition of an international terrorist. Our amendments are clearly on the Marshalled List. I have already said that I shall move them in due course. An issue has been raised in that connection. I refer to our listening process and Clause 21(2)(c). As I said, our amendments are on the Marshalled List. That was what I referred to this morning. I have already referred to our Amendments Nos. 107 and 110. There is no argument about that.
Baroness Buscombe: I accept that those amendments are on the Marshalled List but they deal with links with terrorists; they do not deal with the clear definition of Xinternational terrorism" and what that means.
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