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Lord Rooker: They must because they define what an international terrorist is. That is what Clause 21(2) is aboutthe definition of an Xinternational terrorist". We do not accept what the noble Baroness says because it has been said that we have got the matter right in paragraph (c). The definition is too wide and we want to narrow it. That issue was raised in the Select Committee report and it was raised this morning. I have not misled anyone. I made it quite clear that the amendments were on the Marshalled List.
The Earl of Onslow: Will the noble Lord confirm that he has brought forward amendments which are linked? What did he mean by XI will bring forward", which is what he appears to have said on the wireless this morning? If he says, XI will bring forward", I should like to know what those amendments are because we have not seen them yet.
Lord Rooker: Perhaps I may make it clear. At a quarter to nine this morning I was talking about the future. But the future is nowtoday. The amendments have been published in the Marshalled
List. I am bringing them forward. There is no secret about them. They are not manuscript amendments; they are printed and available for everyone to see. We said that we would bring forward those amendments and we have done so. I am sorry if people are unhappy about us moving forward on this matter but, frankly, we believe that a good case for it has been made. We believe that the wording in paragraph (c) was much too wide and that is why we are rewriting it.I want to make a further point. We are dealing with the peace process because the issue of Northern Ireland has been raised. I hope that I have explained why this legislation, which has come about due to changed circumstances following September 11th and deals with international terrorism carried out by international terrorists, does not apply to the situation that preceded the events of that date. Plenty of legislation is in place to deal with that situation and it would not allow us to derogate from the European Convention on Human Rights so far as concerns UK citizens. That is clear.
Members of the Committee have not followed the logic of what they are saying or hinting at; that is, that somehow we can deport UK citizens. We cannot do so. We want to prosecute terrorists, whether they be international or domestic. If we cannot prosecute international terrorists, then we want to detain them if we cannot remove them. We have difficulties in that regard. That is why this legislation has been brought forward.
Lord Waddington: Perhaps the noble Lord will give way. I am trying to follow the argument very carefully. I appreciate that we are dealing with the part of the Bill which concerns immigration. I appreciate that this Bill is not apt to deal with a British citizen who is not behaving properly. But what about the non-British citizen who is subject to immigration control? He arrives in this country and it then becomes apparent that he intends to become involved in an act of terrorism in Northern Ireland in support of a group which is not acting under a cease-fire. Would it not be absurd if he could not be dealt with under this Bill and be detained? He is a terrorist. He is not a British citizen. He is just the type of person whom we would want to get rid of but perhaps could not return to the country from which he had come, be it Libya or somewhere else in the Middle East.
Lord Rooker: That fits in with the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and another noble Lord about Wales. I have no doubt that there will be highly legalistic arguments about this matter. But, first, it is accepted that we cannot deport UK citizens who are here on a sound basis; it is non-UK citizens whom we want to deport. We are talking about someone who enters this country as an international citizenthat is, someone who is not from the UKand commits acts of terrorism. If those acts concern the affairs of part of the UKnoble Lords have concentrated on Ireland but an example was also given of Welsh extremiststhen it would be argued that it
was a domestic offence because the purpose was to help a domestic terrorist organisation, wherever it may be within the UK.Immigration rules are in place to deal with removing foreigners. Where we cannot remove them, then, in any event, we have a difficulty. That is the case at present. I say to the noble Lord, the former Home Secretary, that SIAC was set up for that very purpose. There may be the odd case which proves to be an exception, but we do not have the powers or the rationale to derogate from the European Convention on Human Rights for events relating to pre-September 11th activities. We would be unable to act on such events.
Although that may appear to be illogical, it is not. One must accept at base that we are trying to meet needs resulting from what happened on, and what has changed since, September 11th. What occurred before then was happening anyway, and, since then, events have occurred during which people have been arrested. The ensuing investigations are continuing under what I shall call our own Xdomestic terrorism legislation".
This part of the Bill is designed specifically to deal with the activities of international terrorists. If they are in the UK, we must take action to deal with them. That is why the measured response in Clauses 21 to 23 is called for. We may need to detain such people and, if we cannot prosecute or remove them and we are not prepared to have them walking free on the streets, we need to set up powers of detention. That seems to me to be logical.
It would not be logical, and I suspect that the law would collapse because of a derogation from the ECHR, if we attempted to apply the legislation to events which occurred before September 11th. We cannot drum up a reason post-September 11th and say, XWell, things were happening previously and, by the way, we need to catch everyone in this". That would not be accepted and we should not be able to put that type of legislation before both Houses. I give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Crickhowell: I sympathise entirely with what the Minister is trying to do. However, if I understand correctly what he has just said, he has confirmed the point that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and myself. That point was that the Basque terrorist coming here in order to place bombs in Wales or, indeed, the Libyan terrorist arriving in Northern Ireland and letting off bombs would escape under this clause because that person would be dealing only with a part of the United Kingdom. It seems to me that we have left an enormous and quite extraordinary gap. Surely that defence will be used by almost any international terrorist who arrives in this country. Such a person will say, XWe aren't dealing with broad matters. Our only interest is in putting a bomb in the place where we put it".
Lord Rooker: The noble Lord gives a preposterous example. He talks about international terrorists popping into an airport and saying, XBy the way, we have come to lay some bombs in Wales or Northern
Ireland". That is preposterous. The whole point about this legislation is that the people with whom we are dealing are difficult to catch. When we apprehend them, it will be impossible to prove in a court of law that they are terrorists. For that reason, and because we cannot go to an open court of law, we need the Special Immigration Appeals Commission. We need the two judges and the lay person to deal with the matter so that we can obtain a certificate in order to detain such a person. That is the whole point of the exercise. If that person were open and above board, we should be in a different ball game and we should not need this type of legislative action. I give way to the noble Lord, Lord King.
Lord King of Bridgwater: I shall give the noble Lord a far less preposterous proposition. He is probably aware that previously in connection with PIRA, and certainly also nowmost recently in connection with the Real IRAthere are people, subject to immigration controls, against whom there is not adequate evidence which immediately and accurately fits the description that the Minister has just given of the reason why he requires those powers. I fail completely to understand, when the discretion still remains with the Home Secretary as to whether or not he decides to use them, in any one individual circumstanceI believe that the fact that there are discretionary powers is a matter that concerns a number of your Lordshipswhy, under this Bill, the Government have decided to prevent themselves being able to take action in such circumstances. I find that incomprehensible.
Lord Rooker: I am not sure about the example that the noble Lord gives. His knowledge in this area is greater than mine, but the fact is that non-UK citizens will be affected by this legislation. The noble Lord did not give details of the nationality of the people concerned.
I return to the central issue. Here we are using immigration Act powers. We have taken that approach because the people with whom we are trying to deal are those who, by and large, have no right to be in the country. They are not UK citizens and, therefore, we have the power to remove them if we cannot prosecute them. If we cannot remove them, we need to get them off the streets if we reasonably believe that they are international terrorists or we suspect that they are members of international terrorist organisations. That is the reality. We are not trying to revisit the difficulties and the tragedies that we have had for the past 30 years with regard to our own domestic terrorism. That is an issue for other legislation.
Some noble Lords appear to be implying, but not exactly saying, XBring back genuine internment", or, XLock them up", on the grounds that such people cannot go anywhere because there is nowhere for them to go. I do not accept that the detention that we are proposing is internment because such people can leave the country at any time they like for a third country. If that is what those noble Lords are saying, it would be
much better if they did so openly; that way, we would know where we were in this debate. The reality is that we are not going down the road of reintroducing internment in this country.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I want him to clarify something. I believe that he wishes to exclude the IRA from the provisions of Clause 21, but the Bill covers many other matters. I draw his attention, for example, to Clause 51, which we shall discuss later. It is entitled:
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