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Lord Waddington: We should be indebted to my noble friend Lord Pearson of Rannoch for explaining in detail the gravity of the proposal relating to the European arrest warrant. I do not want to go over the ground which he has covered and it is not my intention to use this opportunity to go into the merits of the proposal in detail. I want to underline to the Committee that if the power in Clause 110 is wide enough to allow the implementation by secondary legislation of a proposal such as this, it must be too wide.
That is the point on which we should continue to focus our attention. We spoke previously of the power being wide enough to allow the creation of any offence in this country. We are now dealing with another classic example of the width of the power. Although the Government have said that they intend to use primary legislation in order to implement the draft framework decision, no one can deny that Clause 110 is so widely drawn that if the Government wanted they could implement this framework decision by secondary legislation. And if the Government had their way, we could not have any real say on it in this Chamber and certainly could not veto it.
No one can deny that the proposal intimately affects the freedom and liberty of the subject. The measure would allow a British citizen to be removed from this country on the say-so of a foreign judge to face trial abroad for an offence unknown to British law. If that kind of new proposal can be implemented by the powers in Clause 110, there is something seriously wrong with the clause.
Lord Elton: Perhaps, before my noble friend sits down, he can say whether the alleged offence—in fact, the non-offence—could have been committed in this country.
Lord Waddington: I was not going to grapple with that problem. My noble friend is probably right, but I do not have to make that point in order to emphasise the gravity of the proposal.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: In answer to my noble friend Lord Elton, I hoped that I had made the position clear. Yes, the crime could have been committed in this country if the offence is listed in Article 2 of the proposed framework decision. The list includes the crime of racism, xenophobia, swindling, forgery and trafficking in administrative documents, trafficking and counterfeiting the euro, but not the pound or the Danish krona. So one certainly can be
arrested for a crime which one is alleged to have committed on these shores, even though it is not a crime in this country.
Lord Elton: I am not drawn to do any of those things, but it seems to me extraordinary that it is proposed—
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: It is the turn of these Benches!
Lord Elton: I am so sorry, I thought I was continuing where I had left off. I shall give way.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Do continue.
Lord Elton: I merely wanted to make the predictable point that it is beyond belief that for doing something which is not a crime in this country and which I did not know was a crime in Greece, I could be indicted by magistrates in Greece to appear before them without the protection of the British legal procedures. If that really is meant, it is the end of a long and honourable chapter in British history and one which, I should have thought, we should defend to the last.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Perhaps I may continue along the same lines. Twelve plane spotters are at present incarcerated in Greece for something which, in our opinion, would not be a crime but presumably is in Greece. If those plane spotters were returned to this country at the present time, they would be safe from extradition and prosecution. But once the European extradition warrant is in place they will not be safe because the Greek Government, or the judicial authorities, will be able to say to us, XWe suspect that the people you think are plane spotters are rather more than that and we want you to extradite them to us to be tried on the basis of the evidence we have received". It is a serious matter.
However, the problem goes deeper than the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, mentioned. He listed a number of items, including racism and xenophobia. The legislation will be serious for individuals and the newspapers of this country. I see in the Telegraph of Thursday 29th November—I am sorry to keep quoting it, but it provides good information—the heading,
- XEU considers plans to outlaw racism".
I do not want to deny the Holocaust because I was around at the time. I saw the pictures of Belsen and other camps. However, it has never been a crime for people to be able to express a different opinion, particularly in this country. I see no reason why people should not be able to continue to do so in this country, even though other countries may have a guilty conscience about what they did during the last war.
Therefore, the provision could go much wider. I do not know what the owners and the editor of the Sun will think of a proposal which could limit their right of
comment and speech. I do not know whether Mr Murdoch has been to see the Prime Minister, to whom he has open access, to warn him of the problems which could arise from the European arrest warrant.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Perhaps I may help the noble Lord. Following our debate on 19th November, I understand that representatives of the Sun approached Downing Street. They were assured that anything they did would not be caught by these provisions. It is partly for that reason that I have brought the matter urgently before the Committee. It is clear that if the editor and proprietor of the Sun continue to write the kind of articles they have been known to write on occasion in the past and publish it in Germany, they could be caught under the general provisions of the decision. However, if they were to be accused of xenophobia, they would be caught under the second paragraph for publishing the newspaper in this country.
5 p.m.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, for that information. He appears to suggest that the Prime Minister is able to give assurances to the owner of the Sun and other newspapers and periodicals that he is unable to give to Parliament—or at least not yet. Whether we shall receive such assurances this afternoon is another matter. It is very interesting to learn that at least Mr Murdoch has been concerned about the Sun. Mr Murdoch also owns The Times which is sometimes fairly forthright. Perhaps it will no longer be possible to call that newspaper XThe Thunderer" when this legislation is passed.
I should like to raise one other very important point. When a person in this country is arrested for an offence that is not particularly serious but could attract a gaol sentence of up to one or two years there is a presumption of bail. That is not necessarily the case in all other countries. Therefore, a person might be arrested here under a European arrest warrant. I understand that the arrest would be made by police officers from another country who would certainly be accompanied by our own police officers. The individual could be extradited and taken to another country in the EU. If there was no presumption of bail in that country he could be incarcerated for weeks or months before being tried for the offence. We are considering a very serious situation. The people of this country have not caught up with what can happen to them under this legislation. I hope that the media understand what is going on and will give the people a wake-up call. I believe that if people are to be taken abroad and incarcerated for weeks on end without bail the Government will face very serious trouble—perhaps even rioting in the streets.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: Is the Minister able to provide any reassurance that at the meeting on 6th December irrevocable decisions will not be taken, which will be the subject of secondary, not primary,
legislation, on the proposal of the EU to turn Europol into an intelligence-gathering and co-ordinating agency? I have asked several times but still have not received an answer—which I was promised by the Minister Mr Ainsworth nearly three weeks ago—whether the proposal that an organisation should handle extremely delicate intelligence, which at present it is not in any way fitted to use, will proceed because it is all part of the fight against terrorism.
There is a very great difference between countries exchanging bilaterally delicate information about terrorism, as no doubt we are doing with many countries at the moment, and placing it in an organisation which is amateur, has a record of leaks and corruption, has set itself up out of the blue and is not accountable to us. It was set up by an EU committee, to which it is solely responsible, to handle terrorist intelligence from all over Europe. As far as concerns intelligence, I do not know how that will affect our relations with the Americans or even our bilateral relations, which are equally important. I still have not been told whether that was done after consultation with the intelligence committee, or whether there was consultation with anyone at all. I should like to be reassured that that will not pass into the equivalent of law by a decision on 6th December as part of the framework decision on terrorism and that it will come back to Parliament to be considered and dealt with by primary legislation. I have raised this question twice, if not three times, on the Floor of the House.
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