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Lord Chalfont: I return briefly to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, which is the essence of what we should be discussing in this Committee. We are dealing with an amendment to one specific clause of the Bill. One has heard some terrifying adumbrations from the noble Lords, Lord Pearson and Lord Stoddart. If it is true that the possibilities which they have outlined may come about because of the provisions of Clauses 110 and 111, it is vitally important that the Bill does not leave this House at least in the form in which it is at present drafted. Is the Minister able to provide clarification and give the Committee a clear assurance that Clause 110 does not cover the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch? If that can be said unequivocally the position is different.
Lord Kingsland: I entirely endorse the observations of my noble friend Lord Pearson about the threats posed by the decision in draft form if agreed to without change. In her reply will the Minister explain, in terms, in relation to each of my noble friend's concerns, whether or not the Government are to take a stand on them?
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: Before the Minister rises to reply—I suspect that the Committee is anxious that she should do so fairly soon—perhaps I may revert to another question put by my noble friend Lord Waddington in the previous debate. The Government are insistent that every part of this Bill derives from the
desire to combat terrorism. How does it come about that the powers to implement by order anything which emerges from Brussels in a way with which we are now familiar shall be limited only to those offences which carry a maximum penalty of less than two years' imprisonment? If the Government are concerned to hammer international terrorism, what is the rationale for that?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: To deal with the last point raised by the noble and learned Lord, I thought that I had dealt with it when I gave my earlier answer. We shall consider the points that have been raised. If there is anything further to be said about the Xtwo-year" point, the Committee can rest assured that we shall do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, directs our attention to the European arrest warrant, which I assure the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, is not covered by Clause 110. I understand the concern.
Lord Waddington: Did I understand the noble Baroness correctly? Is the Minister saying that the European arrest warrant could not be implemented by Clause 110—in other words, by delegated legislation? I am assured that it could be. The fact that the Government have said that they are minded to use primary legislation is a different matter entirely. Surely, she must concede that Clause 110 is written so widely that, had the Government wished to implement the European arrest warrant by secondary legislation, they could have done so.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I could have saved the noble Lord the point. It could be. However, the Government have made clear—I make it clear again—that it is not their intention to do so. The Government intend to bring forward legislation under an extradition Bill. I believe that my noble friend Lord Rooker has already made that clear; and I make it clear to the Committee now.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: But the reason why the Government are, as it were, using a two-pronged attack and producing the arrest warrant in advance, is that they have to reach a decision in Brussels on Thursday and Friday of this week. If they did not have to reach such a decision in a few days' time, they could have brought this proposal in under the provisions of Clause 110, to be considered along with the remainder of the Bill. Had that been the case, I would not have had to table the amendment and raise the issue in such a hurry.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: We have already planned to introduce an extradition Bill. It is the Government's view that that Bill would provide the more coherent and sensible way of bringing forward the provision. I should have thought that that would be a point that Members of the Committee would welcome since it will offer, quite rightly, an opportunity to discuss this as a matter of primary legislation.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I cannot let the Minister get away with that. On the evening of 19th November, her colleague on the Front Bench agreed that once the Government have given way on this matter and gone along with it on Thursday and Friday of this week in Brussels, no room for manoeuvre will be left—notwithstanding the forthcoming extradition Bill. It will have been done unless we stop it tonight.
Lord Elton: Perhaps I may intervene on a brief point. The noble Baroness is saying that the power will not be used. I liken that to a grandfather giving his grandson a motor car on the understanding that the car will not be used to break the speed limit.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Presumably if the noble Lord were to take away the car key, that might be the case. I am saying to Members of the Committee that we have given an undertaking to bring forward this legislation through the extradition Bill. I cannot add to what has been said by my noble friend Lord Rooker, who I believe has already made this point very clearly to noble Lords.
The European arrest warrant is, as the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, has pointed out, still under discussion. Indeed, I understand that a Select Committee in another place is discussing the matter even as we are discussing it in our Committee. We do not want to take a final view as regards how it will be implemented until those negotiations are complete.
I turn now to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Park, as regards intelligence. I am sorry if the noble Baroness has not received a satisfactory response. I believe that when I have replied to her on rather different matters—that is, with regard to intelligence matters in a European context; and it is in that context that the noble Baroness has voiced her concerns—I have assured her both on the military side—which is not the point exercising the noble Baroness here, although the same argument holds good—that we shall not part with any intelligence gathered from United Kingdom sources unless we are satisfied that proper protection is provided for such intelligence.
I understand that the noble Baroness has had her doubts on this point. When she raised them on the last occasion that this discussion was held—I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for digressing, but that was in a different context; that is, with regard to the European Communities (Amendment) Bill currently under consideration in the House—I invited the noble Baroness to put before me any concerns she may have had. She had indicated that she could give examples of her concerns, in particular with regard to the way in which intelligence matters were dealt with. I can give her an assurance that we would not part with intelligence unless we were absolutely certain that it would be treated properly. The noble Baroness knows the seriousness with which Her Majesty's Government treat such matters. To that end, I am happy to repeat that assurance now.
If the noble Baroness would like to discuss these matters in more detail with me, I shall be happy to meet her. I give way.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: Perhaps I may clarify a point. The noble Baroness has generously suggested that we meet for discussions. However, she is referring to a different issue regarding the mechanisms covering the control and destruction of chemical weapons. The issue I am seeking to raise tonight is that of the question whether, on Thursday and Friday, we shall be irrevocably committed to allowing Europol, which it was originally intended should be set up to deal with crime, to establish a terrorism centre, using and operating intelligence. That, I repeat, is a completely different issue and one that I raised some three weeks ago with the Minister, Mr Ainsworth. It is to that request that I have not received an answer.
When I have asked the noble Baroness a direct question, she has in every respect responded with a full answer. I merely point out that I am still anxious to know what consultations took place with whom before this was agreed in principle in Brussels, and whether it will be confirmed on Thursday and Friday.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I am sorry to say that I cannot answer the question put by the noble Baroness in the terms she has posed it. It is a straightforward and clear-cut question and I do not know the answer. I shall do my best to secure the information for the noble Baroness as quickly as possible. I recognise the urgency of the point that she has made.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I am slightly disappointed not to have heard a point of view from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Given their excellent contributions to previous amendments, I cannot believe that they would wish to disagree with the amendment. I repeat that I have moved it only because we do not have time for the European arrest warrant to go through the process that will follow our general deliberations on Clause 110 of the Bill. I regret that it only remains for me to thank all noble Lords who have expressed their support for the amendment and to test the opinion of the Committee.
5.16 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 126EA) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 100; Not-Contents, 124.
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