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The Earl of Onslow: I was having a quick cup of tea with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, and it appears that the most perfect example of rushed legislation was the Indian Independence Act, agreed in June 1947. It involved the partition of the Punjab with 2 million dead. Indian independence took place in August 1947. I accept that this legislation will not have quite the
same consequences. Equally, I accept that that was a tiny piece of showing off of some arcane information which I had just picked up and wanted to share with the Committee.I also suggest that the Government want a sunset clause which is not quite in the land of the midnight sun but which nearly is. I should like to ensure that it is a December sunset clause and not a June in Lapland sunset clause. Therefore, from my point of view, the quicker such a clause is introduced, the better.
Lord Dixon-Smith: Because of the way the amendments are grouped, I now find myself in the slightly embarrassing position of putting before the House an amendment that places me in exactly the same situation as I accused the Government of being in with regard to the Bill. We are considering this overriding sunset clause which we drafted and which is similar, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, to one that was tabled in another place. We seek to insert this new clause at the end of the Bill. That appears to be the proper place to consider this subject seriously—that is, when we have finished our consideration of the Bill and are fully aware of what we, as a House, are prepared to accept.
Therefore, I do not intend to go into the detail of our sunset clause at this stage. That will probably come as a great relief to the Committee. But I believe that we are all agreed that it is necessary to sunset the Bill. That principle is already accepted by the Home Secretary, although he has agreed to it only in relation to parts of the Bill. I believe that the sunset clause is rather too long for most of us to tolerate in relation to some parts of the Bill. That said, this amendment is before us today, and I consider it to be absolutely appropriate that we indicate our complete support for the principle which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has put to the Committee. Having done that, I can now sit down happily and easily.
Lord Rooker: I hope that it will be acceptable if I address the general point of sunsetting rather than each of its details. I shall deal with the general principle as opposed to the specifics of the sunset clause. Such a clause would have the effect of time-limiting virtually all the provisions of the Bill and would do so in a manner that would commit Home Secretaries to return to Parliament again and again with new legislation. That would occur even in circumstances where it was clearly necessary for the provisions of the Bill to continue.
Part 12 of the Bill, which deals with bribery and corruption, escapes that fate, although not in the noble Viscount's amendment. Clearly, noble Lords believe that some offences have a long-term application. Therefore, why does the proposed measure not apply also to Part 9, which concerns aviation security? Do we not want to retain power to remove unauthorised intruders from our airfields? Some areas are distant from the main thrust but they are all related. Some contain loopholes which, through slipshod legislation in Parliament's overall processes, have been allowed to be absent from the statute book.
Do we not want to ensure that our civil nuclear sites, for example, are secure and safe from terrorist attack in the year 2007? We cannot suggest that aiding and abetting people to make nuclear weapons will not be a threat to our security in three or five years' time. Are noble Lords saying that they are happy for those who work with the ebola virus to be checked between now and 2007 but not after that date? What will change? We shall need to control how pathogens and toxins are stored and check those who work with such substances.
Having given some examples—I do not want to be too belligerent—I fully admit that, as we prepared the Bill, we trawled Whitehall. There is no secret about that. We trawled the departments because the terrorist threat has changed since September 11th. There is no question that the terrorists have rewritten the rule book. We conducted a stocktake throughout the whole of Whitehall, asking ourselves where the gaps were in each department. We asked departments to identify any gaps, bearing in mind that our position is different following the events of September 11th. We found some of our laws wanting and admitted that some gaps had been present for a long time. We are seeking to close the loopholes and fill the gaps. Frankly, there is no good cause for giving future Home Secretaries extra work when the matter can be dealt with now.
Parts of the Bill bring in powers where the balance between the liberties of the individual and the security of the majority is fine. All the evidence shows that the general public want action. They certainly do not want more difficulties. They want to know that we have taken all possible and reasonable—some people outside would even be happy with unreasonable—precautions. We must take action, and we have sought knowingly to close the loopholes and fill the gaps. We do not want to say that such measures will not be needed in three or five years' time. I do not put forward my argument from the point of view that the legislation is processing in a normal way through the House; it is not.
Viscount Bledisloe: Does the Minister not recognise that there is a different point to this argument? Many of us accept that many of the aims of the Bill are well intentioned and desirable. Our objection or concern is that, because they are being legislated for at such a frenetic pace, there is no time for people to identify, discover and remedy the unforeseen and undesirable consequences. We are not saying that in time—whatever the sunset period is—similar provisions may not be desirable. We are saying that the topic will need to be revisited in order to ensure that we get the matter right then, having probably got it, at least, partially, wrong because of our current haste. The objects are not wrong but the methods of carrying them out will probably prove to be less than perfect.
Lord Rooker: Perhaps I may say that, as the noble Viscount rose to his feet, that was the very point that I was making. I had moved away from the particular and was saying that we were conscious that the Bill was
not going through the House in the normal manner. I was uttering those very words as the noble Viscount rose. I take the point that is being made; it is not being ignored.I leave aside the sunset provision that we have already put into the Bill and the review of the asylum and immigration powers that will take place after 15 months. At the beginning of our debate last Thursday, I mentioned, as recorded at col. 459 of Hansard, possible ways in which we could float ideas about how the whole Bill—I repeat, the whole Bill, with no exceptions—might, after a reasonable period, be reconsidered by this House and the other place, taking into account the results of that review. I know that it is not a sunset, but it starts to make the point in a parliamentary way on a matter that has been legitimately raised, which is the speed of the passage of the Bill through both Houses, and this House in particular. Some people might say that eight days is not unreasonable, but that it is unreasonable to have no gap between the stages. I accept that. One day does not count as it leaves no time for mature consideration of the issues that have been raised. I accept that we are working at break-neck speed. That is why I raised the issue last Thursday. I am happy to make proposals to test the water. There may be wholesale condemnation and Members of the Committee may say that they do not want a review by Privy Counsellors from both Houses and a debate on their report. Your Lordships may prefer sunset clauses and primary legislation in three or five years' time, which I shall be happy to debate as an alternative.
All the parts of this Bill that end up in the Terrorism Act 2000 will be reviewed annually by statutory requirement on the Home Secretary to lay a report on the operation of that Act at least once every 12 months. That review will be conducted by a Member of this Chamber. We are not convinced of the need for sunset clauses on what I would call the bread-and-butter precautionary anti-terrorist measures in this Bill. But we are mindful, because of the speed of the Bill's passage, of the points that have been made to see whether we can find a review mechanism so that this House and the other place can review the operation of the whole Act within a reasonable period. I suggested 15 months as the point at which the detention powers should be reviewed. I could go on to refer to every amendment, but that would not be acceptable to the Committee.
There is a general point at issue. We do not accept the point about sunset clauses but are always looking for alternatives and think that we have a possibility on which we should be interested to hear the views of Members of the Committee.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Dixon-Smith: I was seeking not to prolong the debate earlier, but perhaps I should have explained my amendment a little more. The Minister keeps implying that sunset clauses will require primary legislation when the sun sets on that particular part of the Bill. I should point out to him that our sunset clause
provides that the legislation can be rolled forward by order. That follows case precedent for other such legislation.
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