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Lord Goodhart: I am sorry to intervene, but I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. The matter was dealt with by my honourable friends in the other place. The power to take the matter forward by order would be exercisable only during the period prior to the sunset clause. Once the sunset clause comes into operation, there must be new primary legislation.
Lord Dixon-Smith: We should not fall out on this. I thought that we had made the wording clear. If I am wrong, I stand corrected.
Lord Renton: I wonder whether I may intervene belatedly. This group of amendments is the most important of all and much detail has been put into each amendment. We have had a reply from the Minister, who is open minded to a limited extent. However, I should like to suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, to my noble friends on the Front Bench and to the Minister that this is a matter of such fundamental importance that we should not attempt to reach a decision this evening but that there should be discussions behind the scenes between the Committee and Report stages to try to reach a sensible agreement as to how the Bill should be dealt with in future. Obviously there must be a time limitation on the Bill because so many clauses change our law drastically in ways which, in the normal course of events, we should not have countenanced. I hope that rather than reaching compromise decisions at this stage, the opportunity will be provided for everyone concerned to reach agreement at Report stage, if possible, on the best way of dealing with the matter.
The Earl of Onslow: I was extraordinarily cheered by what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said. It appears that there is not quite as much disagreement on this issue as on others. The Minister says that we cannot have a sunset clause on everything and that the provisions have to go on a bit longer. But there seems to be an element of God and Abraham bargaining over a Sodom and Gomorrah with the 99 just men, which eventually comes down to five, and then there are none, so the bargain goes out of the window.
There is no difference between the approach of my noble friend and that of the Minister. I should have thought that with a decent amount of haggling, we could almost produce a point of agreement. I do not expect the Minister to say, XYes, I agree", because he is not a Cabinet Minister, but I should have thought it possible for him to say, XI think that there is something in that and I shall see what I can do".
Lord Donaldson of Lymington: I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Renton, and to make a constructive suggestion. There should be what one might describe as a Viscount Bledisloe clause. It need not be agreed
tonight, but on a future occasion a decision on the specified period could be made. It may be slightly novel to suggest that it could go on until an exception arises. A compromise should be built in, which I hope is not the result of haggling, providing for a review of all these provisions and a report to both Houses. To the extent to which each House accepts the review, or any part of it, the Act will continue in force. If the review were entirely favourable, which is highly improbable, we would be left with only a small number of areas to be dealt with by primary legislation, or perhaps by some special arrangement, which could be written in under the exception. It would be a pity to throw the whole thing out and it would be equally a pity if both Houses did not have an opportunity to consider the matter fully the day after tomorrow—I mean that metaphorically—when we have seen how the measure works in practice.
Lord Rooker: I am extremely grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, because his suggestion may give us a lifeboat in the sense of marrying up what I—I hate to use the word—proposed last Thursday, coupled with the desire for some parliamentary effort or control. I shall take the remarks of the noble Lord to be a positive affirmation that there is a way forward. I shall ask my colleagues—I was going to say elders and betters, which they usually are anyway—to pursue this matter through the usual channels.
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to all those Members of the Committee who spoke in this short debate. It is not my intention to press the amendment to a vote. There will clearly have to be further discussion of the matter and co-ordination between these Benches and the Conservative Benches over the form of what I hope will be an agreed amendment on Report, when we shall obviously have time to consider the matter.
The Minister has not entirely grasped the amendment's purpose. It is certainly not our view that those parts of the Bill that are accepted in principle—those on pathogens or aviation security—should be scrapped as a result of the review. We envisage that in such cases the principle will be agreed. If the arrangements prove to be working perfectly satisfactorily within, for example, a five-year period, any primary legislation would be very brief indeed.
The problem in those parts of the Bill that are generally accepted is that the detail may give rise to difficulties. Even if the substance is accepted, we may need to look again at the detail. For example, we shall later today come to a number of amendments—on the face of them, they are rather impressive—relating to Part 7. There may be similar cases in which there has not been time to work out which amendments are needed before the Bill is enacted. Even the relatively non-controversial parts should be reviewed. In that regard, the case is even stronger in relation to those parts that are controversial. Unless the Government agree to the amendments, it will plainly be necessary, we believe, to examine the matter again when we have seen how the arrangements operate.
The matter will clearly be considered on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.45 p.m.
Clause 44 [Transfer of biological agents and toxins]:
Lord Howell of Guildford moved Amendment No. 132:
- Page 21, line 37, leave out Xbelieve" and insert Xsuspect".
The noble Lord said: We come to that part of the Bill concerned with XWeapons of Mass Destruction"—nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and other hideous weapons that science is developing. Unanimity of purpose and of principle is probably greatest in relation to these provisions. They will do most to head off another horror such as September 11th, if there are further horrors and tragedies—pray Heaven that there are not. I confess, in moving the amendment and those grouped with it, to some amazement that it is not already the law of the land—or of international law—that the handling and movement of fissile materials is criminal and illegal in all senses. The provisions are clearly needed as part of the search for gaps that went on in Whitehall—that was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, as the precursor to the preparation for this Bill.
Amendment No. 132 does not appear in my name on the Marshalled List. Perhaps that is just as well—looking closely at the Bill and the amendment, my conclusion is that the wording in neither will do. The purpose behind the amendment, which my noble friends tabled, was to strengthen the provisions in Clause 44 and to bring about a situation in which the suspect, offender or person involved would have to be absolutely sure that the Xbiological agent or toxin" being handled or transferred was for,
- Xprophylactic, protective or other peaceful purposes".
Amendment No. 137 would in effect strengthen the Bill's provisions. As it is currently drafted, the Bill appears to suggest that if armed conflict is afoot—as we have seen in recent weeks, we are not even sure about how to define Xarmed conflict", let alone Xwar" in modern conditions—producing nuclear weapons can be proceeded with without fear of prosecution. That is a loose and very grim prospect. During a war or conflict, one of the many terrorist networks that we now know exist around the globe or a rogue state could
be involved in such an arrangement, and people on UK soil could be involved. Our view is that it would clearly be right to exempt those working in the legitimate service of our own government—that is why we propose to insert,
- Xby, or on behalf of, the Government of the United Kingdom".
I want to discuss two further amendments in this group—my noble friend may discuss the fifth amendment in the group, on which I shall not comment. Amendment No. 141 is a technical legal amendment, which is intended to ensure that documents and information that are Xsubject to legal privilege" cannot be recovered by virtue of a search warrant that is granted under the clause. I understand—others will undoubtedly understand better—that the law is eager to protect and preserve the relationship between a solicitor and his or her client. The Bill should state that a search warrant that is granted under Clause 52 will not extend to the disclosure of information that is subject to legal privilege. Although the amendment appears in this group, it does not follow the group's main theme.
Finally, Amendment No. 142 involves the question of someone who actively connives in the commission of an offence by a company that is involved in the handling and transfer of poisonous weapons of mass destruction, nuclear materials and so on. The Bill implies that anyone who is a director—presumably executive or non-executive—could be swept up in the matter, find himself exposed to criminal charges and suffer a heavy prison sentence. The amendment would in a sense slightly weaken the Bill's proposals by urging that neglect should not be enough to criminalise a company director or other officer. I beg to move.
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