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Lord Goodhart: We on these Benches have some sympathy with Amendment No. 132. It involves a lowering of the standard because the clause will come into operation if someone suspects, rather than believes, that there may be misuse of pathogens. In our view, that lowering of the standard increases the protection of the public without interfering with any significant civil rights or liberties. In those circumstances, we believe that it is a good idea.
Lord Monson: I echo the puzzlement expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, not for the first time, about the grouping of some of the amendments today. I support all the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, but in particular Amendment No. 142, which more logically should have been grouped with Amendment No. 149. I do not believe that people should be sent to prison for two years merely for making an honest mistake.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Like the noble Lord, Lord Howell, I shall deal with these amendments sequentially. I fully accept that the intention of the noble Lord in moving Amendment No. 132 was to strengthen the provisions of the Bill. I recognise that he was trying to be helpful in so doing.
However, I believe that the intention has been to reduce the level of knowledge of the use to which a biological agent or toxin will be put before an act becomes an offence. While that may arguably catch more acts within the scope of the offences, Xbelief" is a tighter term which it is more practical to apply in a court of law than the term Xsuspicion".The noble Lord has told us that he is not happy with either term. However, Xbelief" appears elsewhere in the Bill, notably in Clause 116, which has just been accepted, and it was not challenged. I have to confess to a small amount of perplexity in relation to this matter. I believe that the term Xsuspicion" is used elsewhere in the Bill and I am not entirely sure whether the two terms are interchangeable in the way in which their use is indicated. Perhaps the noble Lord and I should consider the matter.
Amendment No. 137 would limit the armed conflict exemption in Clause 49 to acts done by or on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. Superficially such an amendment may have some attraction, especially if the intention is to prevent someone who is ill-disposed towards this country charged with committing an offence under Clause 48 from claiming that the existence of an armed conflict exempts him or her from application of that clause.
In our view, the amendment would also have the effect of excluding UK citizens from giving what would otherwise be perfectly legitimate assistance to allies that are nuclear weapons states where that assistance was not being given via Her Majesty's Government. We would not want to put obstacles in the way of key allies seeking to fulfil their defence requirements, especially at a time when so much would, by the nature of events, be at stake.
Perhaps I can give a couple of examples of what would trouble us were this amendment to go forward. Under the exception, allied personnel would not be permitted to load, to remove or to maintain allied nuclear weapons stored in the United Kingdom. Specific authorisations from the Secretary of State would be required for those activities. While those actions may be considered to be covered under the status of forces agreement, in our view that would not be legally watertight and, therefore, could not be relied upon. Furthermore, allied nuclear missile submarines would not be permitted, under the exception, to visit a UK naval facility or another port. Specific authorisation would be required. In the light of that explanation I hope that the noble Lord will reconsider the amendment.
The noble Lord did not address Amendment No. 140 tabled by his noble friends. I do not know whether he wants me to address that amendment. It is grouped with the others.
The Duke of Montrose: Perhaps the Minister will forgive my confusion over how to deal with this amendment. I want to speak to Amendment No. 140 but as it concerns Clause 53 I was not sure how it fitted into this group. Perhaps it would be helpful to the
Committee if I speak to it now. This is a probing amendment. Clause 53 endeavours to give justices of the peace in Scotland powers that I believe should properly be exercised by a sheriff. I do not believe that a requirement for a sheriff to do the job would cause any particular delay. In relation to Amendment No. 145A, I believe that the Minister has accepted that argument in relation to search warrants. That was my reason for tabling this amendment.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I thank the noble Duke for putting forward the argument behind Amendment No. 140. This amendment seeks to change the definition of the relevant authority for the purpose of obtaining a warrant in Scotland. The formulation used in the Bill mirrors that used in the Chemical Weapons Act 1996. The Scottish authorities were consulted over its use in this Bill and they said that they were content with the formulation in the Bill.
The wording in the amendment mirrors that used in the Biological Weapons Act 1974, which pre-dates the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, mentioned in Clause 53(1)(b). I believe that the formulation used in the Bill is a more up-to-date formulation. It is acceptable to the Scottish authorities. I hope that the noble Duke will feel able to accept my assurances on that.
Amendment No. 141 deals with legal privilege. We agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, that legal privilege should not be affected by these powers. In fact, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 already provide that constables may not seize items subject to legal privilege and that if any such item is seized it should be returned. However, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has raised an interesting point. I cannot accept his amendment as drafted, but the Government intend to make it absolutely clear that both constables and other authorised officers under this clause will be constrained by the provisions of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001. We intend to do so under the order-making power in Clause 121 (XConsequential and supplementary provision").
In Amendment No. 142 the noble Lord, Lord Howell, sought to allow a defence of neglect of duty on the part of a corporate office holder. This defence is now allowed in other instances where serious offences are involved, including under the Terrorism Act 2000. The language used in the Bill has the equivalent effect for bodies corporate that,
- Xknowing or having reason to believe",
7 p.m.
Lord Howell of Guildford: I am grateful to the noble Baroness. It is rather a ragbag of amendments grouped together covering a wide range of issues. The noble Baroness has very kindly covered them all including the amendment spoken to by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose.
As regards Amendment No. 132, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she said about the strength or otherwise of the clause and the degree of protection it provides in dealing with potential offenders. I had to read the clause several times in order to understand how we were seeking to express our aim to strengthen matters. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for indicating that she would like to give the amendment further thought. In the light of those remarks I shall withdraw the amendment.
As regards Amendment No. 137, the noble Baroness indicated that there would be some practical problems relating to allies handling nuclear materials on UK soil and all kinds of legislative complications that would ensue. I accept that problems would arise. There must continue to be some worries whether the words Xarmed conflict" are just too loose and whether we could provide some tightening of the wording. However, in the light of what the noble Baroness said, I shall not move that amendment.
My noble friend informs me that he is grateful for the noble Baroness's response on the Scottish issue and for the assurances that have been given. However, he feels that the matter is not yet clear. It may be that we shall wish to return to it at a later stage.
Amendment No. 141 concerns the privacy issue, which is very important. I was glad to receive the assurance of the noble Baroness that the issue concerns the Government and that it is addressed through the mechanism of Clause 121. I shall not move that amendment.
Amendment No. 142 concerns the position of company directors. I accept what the noble Baroness has said that the conditions apply in other legislation, particularly under the Terrorism Act 2000. One hopes that the conditions are applied sensibly and sensitively in an undoubtedly difficult area. Again, in the light of the assurances, I shall not move that amendment either.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 45 [Extraterritorial application of biological weapons offences]:
[Amendment Nos. 133 and 134 not moved.]
Clause 48 [Use etc. of nuclear weapons]:
The Earl of Onslow moved Amendment No. 134A:
- Page 24, line 5, leave out subsection (1).
The noble Earl said: When I read this clause I simply did not believe my eyes! The idea that it has been perfectly legal to cause a nuclear weapon to explode ever since they were invented strikes me as totally
hysterical. They have them in council house fireworks parties for 5th November. So too is the idea that if I have a five kilotonne nuclear bomb in the back of my car and I am driving down Camden High Street and I am stopped by XPlod" who says, X'Allo, 'allo, 'allo, what have you got in there? Is it an atomic bomb?" to which I reply, XYes, officer, it is an atomic bomb, but you know that it is perfectly legal to have one", I cannot be arrested. However, if I had a .22 starting pistol that would have been a very different matter altogether and I could have been arrested and locked up.The point of this amendment, apart from giving hours of harmless amusement, is to find out why such possession has not been made a criminal offence before. There are two small points. Clause 48(1)(b) refers to a person who,
- Xdevelops or produces, or participates".
What I am trying to get at is the total joy of finding in an Act of Parliament that a person knowingly causing a nuclear weapon explosion is guilty of an offence. There is a slight seriousness underneath this. Who is allowed to help with nuclear research, under what circumstances and where? Is this clause simply clarifying what has been the law or is it new legislation? I beg to move.
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