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The Earl of Onslow: The noble Baroness had a much easier task with the amendment than she did with Clauses 110 and 111. On this particular clause, even I do not think that there should be a sunset clause; that after two years we should all be allowed to use nuclear weapons. Anyway, I thank her for joining in what I must admit has been an awfully good joke and doing it with such charm. I thank her also for answering the questions which arose out of this little divertimento. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 135 and 136 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 137 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 138 not moved.]
Clause 51 [Assisting or inducing certain weapons-related acts overseas]:
[Amendment No. 139 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 140 and 141 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 142 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 142A not moved.]
Clause 59 [Pathogens and toxins in relation to which requirements under Part 7 apply]:
[Amendment No. 143 not moved.]
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff moved, in substitution for Amendment No. 143A, Amendment No. 143AA:
- Page 29, line 25, at end insert—
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 143AA, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 143AB, 143BA, 143BB and 144A in that order. The Explanatory Notes state that the managers of laboratories and other premises holding stocks of specified disease-causing micro-organisms, as in Schedule 5, should be required to notify their holdings and to comply with any reasonable security requirements which the police may impose. In order to ensure such security, it is also sensible that on request they furnish the police with details of people who have access to dangerous substances held there.
Perhaps I may preface my remarks by informing the Committee that police security checks are already being conducted on some of the laboratories which hold organisms and toxins identified in Schedule 5. Those visits are proving helpful to staff by providing advice on security and crime prevention.
The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the vital diagnostic and research work of the nation's medical and veterinary laboratories is not seriously impeded by the legislation. The current wording of Clause 59(5) states that a substance is not to be regarded as dangerous if,
Some of the nasty micro-organisms identified in Schedule 5 are often found to be infections contracted by travellers abroad and identified when they return to this country ill. Therefore, clinical specimens from such patients are handled by routine NHS laboratories, many but not all of which are accredited.
When an organism in the schedule is identified, the specimen should then be sent on to a specialist reference laboratory and it is essential that only a credited laboratory may receive, store or use such organisms. The laboratory must ensure precise identification of the type and sub-type of the organism. In order to do that detailed analysis, the laboratories are required to hold a stock of reference cultures of the organisms and those are held securely.
Although laboratories should be fully accredited, that is currently a voluntary procedure and some are not. It seems essential that non-accredited laboratories which may detect the micro-organism listed in Schedule 5 do not then continue to handle it; nor do they invite such specimens from other laboratories. Hence the tabling of Amendment No. 143AA, to insert that:
The next problem for laboratory staff is Clause 62. The problem is that several of the reference cultures are held in hospitals which by their very nature are public buildings. It is impossible for the management of such a hospital to list all the people who will enter the building or site of which the premises form part as the whole population is potentially involved. Unfortunately, in some buildings it is not even possible to ensure that subsection (1)(c) could be enforced, since the corridor through the laboratory area is a fire exit, so it cannot be locked off from the remainder of the building. Even the Public Health Laboratory's headquarters has many international professional visitors to it and even though they are not given access to the secure section, they pass through many parts of the building. The requirements in paragraphs (c) and (d) do not seem to be reasonable to attempt to enforce. Hence the tabling of Amendment No. 143BB to omit paragraphs (c) and (d) from subsection (1) of Clause 62.
The other problem is that laboratory staff are poorly paid yet highly skilled. These laboratories are therefore staffed below establishment because they cannot recruit. The pressure of normal operational work means that staff on the lower gradings are being brought in at short notice, either from agencies or from job centres. The requirement to give 30 days' notice of the persons entering the premises becomes unworkable. Taking the example of an epidemic, the epidemic would be well and truly over by the time the staff could start work or police time would otherwise
Baroness Buscombe: I rise simply to speak in support of what the noble Baroness has had to say. Her amendments appear eminently sensible.
Lord McNally: Speaking for Members on these Benches, this appears to be the kind of amendment made in Committee from an expert source which the Government would do well to heed.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: Before I make my general comments on the amendment, it would be wise to acknowledge the noble Baroness's great expertise in the field. I sense the sympathy of the Committee for that expertise and detailed knowledge. We are most grateful for the way in which the amendments have been tabled because they have opened up an interesting issue.
Amendment No. 143AA would prohibit anyone from knowingly holding Schedule 5 organisms on any premises which were not appropriately accredited or licensed. As we understand the position, the problem with that is that the Bill does not set up any arrangements for accreditation of licensing. We have opted instead for an approach which deals specifically with the problem of the potential use of these substances for terrorist purposes. The Bill therefore focuses on making sure that the right security measures have been taken.
The Bill does that not by a licensing procedure, but by ensuring that the police have access to all necessary information in order that the right precautions can be taken. We have not thought it necessary to set up a licensing system in order to do that. Indeed, any such system could well overlap with the employee safety controls already administered through the Health and Safety Executive.
The effect of the amendment as it stands would be to end all work on substances named in Schedule 5 in this country. I am sure that that is not what the noble Baroness intended and that is not what the Government want to bring about. As a result, we cannot advise the Committee to accept it.
I turn to Amendments Nos. 143AB and 143BA. I fully understand the reason behind them and the reason for tabling them. It would seem to us to be entirely unreasonable if a person were prosecuted for failing to supply information relating to a holding of dangerous substances which he or she did not know about. But we are also clear that the amendments are unnecessary. Clause 68 provides that,
Amendment No. 143BB concerns the information which the police may require about people who have access to dangerous substances, or areas in which dangerous substances are kept. The amendment would give the police power to require lists of people who had access to dangerous substances themselves, or to specified parts of premises where dangerous substances were kept. I am glad that we agree on that. But it would remove the power to ask for a list of people who had access to the premises as a whole or to any building or site of which the premises formed part. We believe that the police may need that power in some circumstances.
If the area within the premises where the dangerous substances are kept cannot be made totally secure, access to the premises as a whole will need to be very carefully controlled. If the premises themselves cannot be made secure, access will also need to be controlled very carefully. It may be necessary to treat a wider area—a building or even a site within which the premises are situated—as a single secure area on the basis that once someone has access to that secure area it may not be possible in practice to stop him from getting access to the premises themselves. It is for that reason that we believe the police should have the power to obtain details of everyone having access to the premises, or, where necessary, a building or site of which the premises form part; otherwise, the intention behind these provisions could easily be thwarted. I hope that for those reasons the amendment will not be pressed.
Amendment No. 144A relates to the situation in which the police have asked for and received details of people who have access to particular premises where dangerous substances are kept. If the manager of the premises wishes to admit someone else, his details must also be notified to the police and he will not to be allowed access for 30 days unless the police clear the application earlier than that. This amendment would apply only to premises where diagnostic and diagnostic reference work was conducted and would mean that a person, once notified to the police, could have access to such premises immediately. We cannot agree to this amendment. However, I hope that I shall be able to allay the concerns which lie behind it. If we agreed to it, it would mean that a potential terrorist could have access to dangerous disease stocks without the police having had time to check on his background. That would frustrate the whole intention of the clause, which is precisely to ensure that in high risk situations there is time for a police check to be completed. The fact that the amendment would apply only to laboratories where diagnostic and diagnostic reference work was conducted would not remove the risk because there could be no
While I must invite the Committee to reject the amendment, I recognise that there are concerns that some of the substances which this Bill would bring under control may not be harmful when used in minute quantities for diagnostic purposes. We intend to bring forward a statutory instrument, the terms of which we are currently discussing with representatives of the scientific community in great detail, which would exclude from the controls of the Bill any premises in which Schedule 5 dangerous substances are held only in a specified form or under specified conditions which mean that they pose no danger to human beings. This should ensure that many or most premises which use Schedule 5 substances only for diagnostic purposes should be exempt from the controls created by the Bill.
I apologise for the length of my response, but I believe that the seriousness of the matter raised by the amendments deserves a full reply. In view of that, I hope that the noble Baroness will take careful note of what has been said and will not press her amendments.
X( ) Schedule 5 organisms and toxins may only be knowingly received by, used on or stored on appropriately accredited or licensed medical or veterinary diagnostic or research premises."
Xit satisfies prescribed conditions; or . . . it is kept or used in prescribed circumstances".
But those prescribed conditions and circumstances are not defined.
XSchedule 5 organisms and toxins may only be knowingly received by, used on or stored on appropriately accredited or licensed medical or veterinary diagnostic or research premises".
Of course, once the organism is being identified the laboratory is holding it but is not yet knowingly holding it. Hence the tabling of Amendments Nos. 142AB and 143BA.
7.30 p.m.
XAn occupier who fails without reasonable excuse to comply with any duty or direction imposed on him by or under this Part is guilty of an offence".
This means that a person who genuinely could not have been expected to know that he or she held the substances in question will not be liable to prosecution. The Government prefer this approach to that of the noble Baroness because her amendments would let off the hook a person who claimed that, out of sheer negligence, he or she had not taken the trouble to find out what dangerous substances were held in the laboratory. I hope that the existence of the Xreasonable excuse" provision reassures the noble Baroness that these provisions will operate completely fairly.
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