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Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, perhaps I may distinguish between what I think the Minister is
talking about, which is a complex used for courts—magistrates' courts, Crown Courts and other courts—and what I am talking about, which is a courthouse that is also used, as in Dorchester, as a council chamber and for many other different purposes.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we are not at odds. That is precisely what I am talking about. It is precisely what we have encouraged: the joint use of buildings. There are almost 45 instances of magistrates' courts and the court service sharing accommodation. In addition, there are almost 170 courtrooms throughout England and Wales being used by other agencies, such as the immigration appeal authorities, coroners' courts and the Tax Commissioners. It is very much what we want to see happening in the future.
This is not a court closure programme; but where, for example, two courthouses are close together and all the work can be accommodated in one of the courthouses, it makes good sense to have only one courthouse. In that way, we can maintain access to justice, release funds to improve facilities and improve the efficient use of our estate assets.
I should like to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in relation to concerns regarding Montgomeryshire. The case for a new magistrates' court in Newtown and Carmarthen is accepted. Officials have been exploring ways of providing the new court. The current available funding option is through the private finance initiative procurement route. No capital funding is available at present for a project of this size but existing capital funding has been earmarked for smaller projects, which consist of security, health and safety, disability, and trying to address the backlog of maintenance work. Officials met the justices' chief executive of the Dyfed Powys Magistrates' Court Committee and elected authority members only last Wednesday, 28th November, to discuss ways of moving the procurement forward. Each of the authorities is to consult members to seek commitment to join the Gwent PFI project, and it is anticipated that a decision will be made by early January 2002. Potentially, if the local authorities agree to proceed, new buildings will become available in 2005.
Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, when can we expect a new court in Montgomeryshire?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the noble Lord will know that does not fall within the gift of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. It is a matter which will have to be defined in the usual way and as I have just described. I see the noble Lord shaking his head, but I must reiterate that this is a matter for the magistrates' court committee. For so long as it has the authority, it will have to be permitted to make the relevant decisions.
The Central Council of Magistrates' Courts Committees has published its revised Good Practice Guide on Courthouse Closure. The revised guide is very comprehensive and includes guidance on the impact of
new legislation such as the Human Rights Act. We believe that it will prove to be an invaluable reference document when considering courthouse closure and other accommodation issues and we do encourage magistrates' courts committees to follow the advice given in this guide.By statute magistrates' courts committees are only required to consult with their paying authorities on proposals to close magistrates' courts. But in the spirit of good practice and as recommended by the central council's guidance, MCCs invariably consult much more widely than that. Consultees will typically include magistrates, staff, probation, CPS, MPs and other professional users.
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, I have not taken part in the debate and I apologise for intervening. I live in Somerset. There is enormous distress at—
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I emphasise that in relation to the extra distance court users may have to travel, the return costs of that travel and the time taken to complete the return journey, that issue is specifically one which MCCs are invited to take into account.
The Rural White Paper commits all major government departments to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Countryside Agency initiative of rural proofing all policy, and therefore to consider the impacts of those policies on rural areas both at the development and the implementation stage. We have requested MCCs to include rural proofing updates in their annual reports and indeed rural issues already feature in a number of factors that we expect MCCs to consider when proposing closures.
The public have a right to expect well equipped courts. It is part of the thrust of the Government's intention to help to modernise the criminal justice system. I refer to the private finance initiative where we have #70 million of credits allocated in each of the next three years. That is an important movement forwards.
I come to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I have answered many of them in the round but time has now run out and I am unable to complete all that I wished to say this evening. However, I undertake to write to noble Lords in relation to specific issues.
Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill
8.43 p.m.
Schedule 5 [Pathogens and toxins]:
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff moved Amendment No. 143B:
- Page 106, line 38, leave out XChlamydophila" and insert XChlamydia"
The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 143B to Schedule 5 is simply a question of taxonomy. Under an amendment agreed on 26th November in the other place, the organism, Chlamydia psittaci was rescheduled as Chlamydophila psittaci. I believe that that was based on information from a paper in the International Journal of Systemic Bacteriology, following the molecular genetics of the organism. However, that recommended renaming—the paper's authors are from the US—has not come into use in the UK and the organism is not currently known as Chlamydophila psittaci in the Public Health Laboratory Service and NHS laboratories. To avoid confusion it would seem sensible to use the name that is commonly used. I venture to suggest that perhaps rather than simply reverse the previous amendment another way to handle the matter may be to use both the new and the old names in the text to ensure that laboratories know that the organism under either name is the organism in Schedule 5. I beg to move.
The Countess of Mar: I have a feeling that the noble friend of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has passed the buck. I asked a question on the previous amendment about pigeons and this particular bacterium. I understand that every pigeon is infected with Chlamydia or Chlamydophila psittaci. I quote from Clause 59(4)(b) of Part 7 which states:
- Xanything which is infected with or otherwise carries any such substance".
Lord Rooker: I hope that I can satisfy both noble Baronesses. However, if I cannot do so, and there is any doubt about the matter we shall rectify the position.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, said, the amendment would reverse the government amendment that was agreed in the Commons. All I can do is explain how that came about in terms of the scientific advice on which we acted in proposing the amendment in the other place. The list of substances in Schedule 5 is known as the Australia Group list. I hope that I shall not be asked why it is known as the Australia Group list. I am sure that the noble Baroness knows why that is, but I do not.
When the provisions of the Bill were first discussed with the scientific community, one researcher contacted the Home Office to say that the list had recently been amended as a result of a scientific reclassification of certain types of bacteria. The result was that the entry we originally had in the Bill would have included not only the rather nasty bacterium which can cause psittacosis in humans as well as caged birds, but also a less frightening cousin whose worst known effect is to cause conjunctivitis in domestic cats. As we did not think that the threat from terrorists spreading feline conjunctivitis was a pressing one, it
seemed to us that we would be justified in amending the list in Schedule 5 in order to focus on the bacterium which created a threat to human health and not impose unnecessary controls on researchers working on substances which were essentially harmless. There may still be debate on the matter in the scientific community. It is the kind of matter we must get right. I shall certainly take advice on the noble Baroness's suggestion.On Second Reading—although I cannot find a reference to it in Hansard—someone mentioned that smallpox was not included in the list. However, I understand that it is, as smallpox is the variola virus. I am happy to put that point on the record. I do not know whether I have answered satisfactorily the noble Baroness but I am about to find out.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I thank the Minister for his reply. I could discuss ribosomal RNA but I do not wish to detain the Committee any longer. I propose that the suggestion I made earlier is implemented; that is, to use both names in the schedule. The concentration of ribosomal RNA and one of the genes within it determines under which sub-type one classifies the organism. It is the same organism; it is simply a question of the name which is used. I should be cautious as regards having a name in the Bill which is not the name that is in current use by the Public Health Laboratory Service, which is the main public health laboratory service for this country. I believe that we should respect the names that it currently uses. If the Minister has accepted—
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