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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach): I am grateful to noble Lords for the way in which the amendments have been introduced. Perhaps I may deal first with the Ministry of Defence Police and then move on briefly to the other police forces that have been mentioned in the amendments grouped with Amendment No. 160. However, I should say now that I am grateful to the two noble Lords who have spoken in support of Clause 100 in the Bill.

To return to the Ministry of Defence Police, the amendments arise out of the provisions of Clause 98. The purpose of the clause is to permit the MoD Police to act outside their normal jurisdiction in certain defined circumstances. I should remind the Committee that the MoD Police are a properly constituted civil police force. We are not discussing here the powers of the military police, quite properly referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. I shall respond to the question he put to me in his intervention; that is, whether the Government would consider extending powers to the service police forces—the provost forces. The answer to the noble Earl's question is no. We have considered the matter, but we do not think that it would be appropriate. Services police are made up of service personnel with authority only over personnel subject to the service discipline Acts. We do not seek to extend their powers.

The Ministry of Defence Police already have authority vested under the Ministry of Defence Police Act 1987 to exercise police powers outside the defence estate at the request of a Home Department police officer provided that it is Xin the vicinity" of defence property. We believe that that power has proved too vague and too restrictive to meet the needs of the force under today's conditions. We seek therefore in subsection (2) of Clause 98 to repeal that power and to insert two new and more clearly defined powers as set out in subsection (4).

First, there is an authority to exercise police powers anywhere when requested by another police officer, but only in respect of a significant and specific incident, investigation or operation. I have used the word Xsignificant", but I should not have done so. I refer only to a specific incident, investigation or operation. That proposal appears to have been accepted, at least to the extent that no amendments have been tabled on it at this stage of our proceedings.

Secondly, there is an authority to exercise powers in an emergency, but only in respect of a person whom they suspect of having committed, being in the course

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of committing or being about to commit an offence, or to save life or prevent or minimise personal injury, and—this is important—where action is needed in a timescale which renders it impossible to secure the attendance of another police officer or a request to take action.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, with the battle scars to remind him of the occasion, spoke of this as a rehash of a Bill that was passed only in part before the general election. I hope that these proposals will make him feel easier. Having taken the tenor of the debates held during the proceedings on the Armed Forces Bill, to which the noble Lord referred, we do not propose to resurrect the power proposed in that Bill, which sought to enable the MoD Police to enter into standing agreements with Home Department forces to police areas adjacent to defence property. We think that the powers now being sought will suffice to meet the needs of the force in all likely scenarios. Thus, that change has been introduced.

We believe that the changes set out in the Bill represent a sensible but strictly limited clarification and extension of the powers of the MoD Police to enable them to do the job they have been set, to further co-operation with other police forces and to meet the expectations of the public. The public does have expectations and we must do our best to meet them. However, the powers are especially important at a time of heightened terrorist threat when defence property could very easily become a terrorist target. Lastly, the powers parallel closely those which we seek for the British Transport Police.

In dealing with the amendments, perhaps I may say why we are not able to accept them. Together their effect would be to restrict to a narrow range of incidents the authority of MoD police officers to act outside defence property in an emergency; namely, terrorist incidents where there is danger to life or the risk of personal injury. That would mean that a Ministry of Defence police officer whose assistance in an emergency was sought by a member of the public outside defence property would still be unable to act as a police officer except where terrorism was involved.

From that arises the question whether it is easy to put over in every case precisely whether the incident is one that involves terrorism. The phrase used in Amendment No. 160 is,


    Xoffence which he might reasonably assume to be terrorism".

But what is it reasonable to assume is terrorism? What of the case of going equipped to commit criminal damage, or the use of a stolen car? Would it be reasonable for a Ministry of Defence police officer to assume that that constituted an act of terrorism? What of the possession of a stolen passport? Perhaps I may cite as an example an individual acting suspiciously and tampering with a vehicle. He may be attempting simply to steal it, which would not be an act of terrorism. Alternatively, he may be seeking to place a bomb under the car. Clearly that would be such an act.

In that situation, would we really want the officer to hesitate while he considers whether he has the power to act? Even less, would we want that officer to turn away

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and allow the offence to take place simply because he decided that it was not a terrorist offence? I think that members of the public would be deeply shocked if they thought that Ministry of Defence police officers, when faced with an incident, had to look at it in such a particular light. That is why, with the greatest respect—I understand why the amendments have been put before the Committee—the Government feel that Amendments Nos. 160 to 163 are, not to put too high a word on it, absurd. They would not deal with the problem.

We are attempting to deal with the problem. Whether this course provides the right answer, only time will tell. I do not believe that attitudes such as those I have expressed would have been acceptable before 11th September; I am quite convinced that they would not be afterwards.

My second point is that under the amendments—even where terrorism was involved—an officer from the Ministry of Defence Police would be unable to act unless there was an immediate danger to life or of personal injury. So the fact that it might be terrorism would not be enough unless it was terrorism intended to cause death or injury to a person. Of course, most terrorist acts are intended to do that, but it is possible that the terrorists might seek to destroy empty property for their own purposes—to frighten, to scare. They are clever, intelligent people who make their own calculations.

If these amendments were agreed to, they would prevent a Ministry of Defence Police officer intervening in a situation where a suspect, believed to be a member of an illegal organisation, was scouting. Again, there would be no immediate threat of violence, but time would be of the essence. Under the Terrorism Act 2000—noble Lords involved in that Bill during its passage through the House will remember it with affection—the Ministry of Defence Police are empowered to arrest members of illegal organisations. But where there was no immediate threat of violence, these amendments would prevent prompt action by the Ministry of Defence Police without a prior request to the local police. I hope that noble Lords are persuaded that agreeing to the amendments would lead to an unsatisfactory result.

As to safeguards, we have given a great deal of thought to the Committee's concerns. The powers are limited strictly to genuine emergencies. The clause states that the officer concerned can exercise the police powers granted under it only when the purpose of his action would be frustrated or seriously prejudiced if he did not act before another police officer could be summoned or contacted. Given the speed of radio communications, that places a severe limitation on the powers of the Ministry of Defence Police.

As regards the British Transport Police, Clause 100 will permit officers to act outside their normal railway jurisdiction on non-railway matters in restricted circumstances. It would appear from the contributions made by noble Lords on all sides of the Committee that Clause 100 is widely supported. It has been argued for a long time that the British Transport Police should

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have extended powers. In our view, the case is well made out and I do not need to trouble the Committee any longer with the arguments. They are very much the same as those I employed in regard to the Ministry of Defence Police. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

5.30 p.m.

The Earl of Onslow: The noble Lord listed the actions the police could not take without these powers. But surely it is right that if I see these crimes being committed, I, as a common citizen, have a citizen's power of arrest? To those of us who have what the Home Secretary calls an airy-fairy, liberal concern for liberty—we call it a deep concern for the proper constitutional government of this country—the noble Lord is saying that if a Ministry of Defence policeman sees the same thing, he cannot do anything because he has to pass by on the other side. I simply do not believe that to be the case.

As for the Minister saying that our worries about the extension of police power are absurd, I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to say that the Government's tendency to ignore civil liberties—of which there have been many examples recently—is not necessarily absurd but plain wrong.


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