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Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I am sorry that noble Lords find that an amusing remark because it was not intended to be. It was intended to be a plain statement of the fact. The support stems from the benefit which judicial review provides in overseeing the actions of public officials. I fully accept that in many areas judicial review has a vital role to play. I would not disagree in any way whatever with the noble Lords who have spoken about that. But where there is an area in which judicial oversight—judicial review with a small Xj" and a small Xr"—can be better provided, with more safeguards to the other party, the detainee, I say that that is a better and more logical route to go down.
The Government have produced an alternative which is a strong and robust route for judicial scrutiny. It was promoted by organisations which have an interest in the safeguards for individuals. It was encouraged by the European Court of Human Rights and it derives from the Canadian model which was before that court. I note with considerable interest—and I invite noble Lords to consider this—that although the Joint Committee on Human Rights, for which I have great respect, produced two reports in which it made several criticisms of the Government—I do not say that I accept them for a moment—it has not included the criticism that the SIAC route is inappropriate. Quite the contrary. As I read the report, it accepts that the SIAC route is appropriate.
The only point that is left is the symbol. If noble Lords would recognise, as I earnestly urge them to do, that the SIAC route is judicial review—it is strong and robust judicial scrutiny—no bad symbol is being sent out at all. There is a symbol that we want the Secretary of State's decision to be fully reviewed by a judicial body which is able to consider the evidence and all the evidence. For those reasons, I invite noble Lords not to press their opposition to the clause standing part.
Perhaps I may say briefly that Amendment No. 33 deals with the derogation issue. I should have dealt with that matter earlier. In order for any court to determine whether or not the derogation is appropriate, it will be necessary for that court to see and consider the intelligence information which is in the possession of the Government indicating what is the public emergency. Only the SIAC will be in a position to do that and that is why it is the appropriate court also to consider that issue.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on these two amendments. I am especially grateful to the Attorney-General for the care and patience with which he has dealt with the debate.
I am afraid that when I first read Clause 30 I said to myself, XAh, here is an example of putting in something which really cannot be defended and in due course it will be conceded. That will help the passage of the Bill". However, that has not happened.
The arguments are well and clearly exposed before the House. As was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, regarding the sensitivity of information, it is perfectly possible for rules to be made which will provide the same protection to sensitive intelligence information as applies at the moment in the SIAC.
The problem facing the Attorney-General has been this—
Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord give way? The noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, said that one could exclude the applicant. Could one also refuse to allow him to have counsel of his choice because one thought that the counsel of his choice was inappropriate and would himself leak the information?
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, I do not enter into the merits. All I say is that the mechanism is available. The trouble that the Attorney faced was that the more he laboured with great skill to show the perfection of the SIAC procedure the harder it was to explain why so many people would apparently go down the other route that it would be a waste of time, resources and everything else. I believe that the issues are clearly before noble Lords and I invite the House to express its opinion.
8 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 32) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 191; Not-Contents, 117.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Black of Crossharbour, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Deedes, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richardson of Duntisbourne, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wolfson, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Attenborough, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
8.11 p.m.
Clause 31 [Legal proceedings: derogation]:
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