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Lord Naseby: Before the Minister sits down, I and another Member of the Committee raised the question of the Netherlands, which has experience in this area. It would be incomprehensible if the Minister had not already contacted the Netherlands in relation to the Bill. Undoubtedly he would have wanted to assess the results in the Netherlands. Is he in a position to tell us his findings? Unless there are strong reasons why the experience in the Netherlands drives a coach and horses through the public policy dimension to the Bill, I should have thought that the Minister would welcome the Netherlands having done the donkey work, as it were.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: It may come as a surprise to the noble Lord to know that we do not always look to the Netherlands for guidance and advice on how we should legislate. Alas, no, I have not investigated the position in the Netherlands, although I should always look with interest at any reference or article of research that he would care to send me which would indicate the Netherlands' experience.
We have to legislate in a context that we understand in the UK. I believe that such definitions, particularly that included in Amendment No. 49A, would drive a coach and horses through the Bill. The amendment would remove the protection that the Bill as drafted gives in relation to specialist products. The use of the phrase X100 brands" could allow many other retail outlets to advertise in the way permitted in the Bill. It is not a sensible road to go down.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Naseby: I am sorry to persist on the Netherlands. Given that the amendment had been tabled, it is disappointing that the Minister was unable
to anticipate that the point would be raised. Will he now undertake to consult with the Netherlands? I am capable of writing, but the free postage for Back-Benchers does not extend to EU countries—although the House authorities may be looking at that—and I think that he may have more resources than I have. I am sure that we would all welcome an objective assessment by one of his officials.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I feel that a trip to the Netherlands is coming. If the noble Lord had alerted me before our debate that he would raise this important question of the Netherlands experience, no doubt I would have been able to do further research. Of course the Government look at international experience, which has been very relevant to our research on the impact of a tobacco advertising ban on smoking prevalence in this country. I am always prepared to look at any research that is available. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will also wish to look at it.
I believe that the drafting is a sensible approach. We believe that it is right to protect small family specialist tobacconists, but we have sought to do so in a way that will not lead to further loopholes.
Lord Clement-Jones: We need to remind ourselves, as the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Peston, have done, that the Bill makes a concession here. The issue is who should benefit from it. I do not want to reinvigorate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, at this stage in our proceedings, but the onus of proof is on those who want to widen the concession. I do not believe that that case has been made. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, and others have described the amendments as modest and helpful, but I believe that they would go too far by trying to expand the number of specialist tobacconists that could be included under the clause.
I understand that there are somewhere in the order of 380 such tobacconists. I believe that a parliamentary Written Answer last week confirmed the number of those who believed that they fell within the definition. That shows how straightforward the definition is. If it is clear among those specialist tobacconists whether they fall within the provisions, surely that certainty is useful.
I have a little experience in the retail business. I am not as distinguished an economist as the noble Lord, Lord Peston—indeed, I am not a distinguished economist at all—but I know that turnover is a very straightforward measure, whereas profit is not. All kinds of issues relating to the margin that someone chooses to take on a product affect the profit that is made. Profit does not necessarily represent the bulk of someone's trade. The number of brands stocked is an even more uncertain definition. Someone could easily stock all sorts of small and insignificant brands from all sorts of far away countries, but the bulk of their trade could still be in other products.
It is important to have a clear idea of the concession that we are making. We are talking about the family shops that the Minister referred to, selling products such as cigars and humidors, which are not, by and
large, attractive to children and teenagers, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. As with all our deliberations, the concession is a matter of degree. It is a substantial concession to allow such shops to have displays in their stores for their products. In the face of a complete ban in the rest of the Bill, except for point of sale material, that is a considerable concession.I am firmly of the view that these amendments are not appropriate in the circumstances. I believe that the balance of the Bill, and the balance of the concession in the current Bill, are correct. I believe also that if one took account—the Minister dealt with this point adequately—of Internet sales, one would rebalance in a completely different way how one viewed the specialist stores. Would a conventional retail store which sells cigars on the Internet then be classified as a specialist store? That is not the kind of concession which I envisage under the Bill. I do not believe that the case is made for that and I am afraid that I do not believe the case is made for the other amendments we are discussing.
Lord Naseby: Before the promoter of the Bill sits down, he has gone to great lengths in his preparation for the Bill, as is self-evident from the nature of some of his contributions. He will have recognised that the measure we are discussing is the one major exception affecting just 380 tobacconists. He will have known of the consultations that the Minister and one of his colleagues undertook when the original Bill was discussed with the relevant trade association. The Government are to be commended on doing that. Is the promoter of the Bill able to enlighten the Committee on what arose from his discussions with the trade association?
Lord Clement-Jones: I thank the noble Lord for his comments. It is interesting to note that the noble Lord says that some of my contributions are too short but that I have also carefully considered, and made careful remarks on, other matters. I am grateful for that level of inconsistency.
Lord Naseby: I believe that there is absolutely no inconsistency. Where the promoter of the Bill deals with my amendments or my noble friends' amendments in depth and properly, we will say so. However, where he just casts them aside because he thinks that he has taken a stance and then simply sits down, we will criticise him.
Lord Clement-Jones: I am grateful that my responses will not be subject to a blanket condemnation but that it will be purely selective and highly targeted.
I have not had consultations with tobacconists. I have not had a single representation since I put forward the Bill from any specialist tobacconist, and given that the Bill has received such a considerable degree of publicity I believe that that demonstrates that, generally, we have the balance right in the Bill.
Lord Monson: I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, and to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for their support. I am particularly grateful too, in view of what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has just said, to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for pointing out that not all retailers belong to trade associations, any more than all farmers belong to the NFU. Often larger farmers and larger retailers belong to such organisations. Their views do not always coincide with those of smaller retailers or smaller farmers. That is perhaps one of the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has not received any letters on the subject. I am not sure that the publicity attending the Bill has been quite as great as he suggests. Actually, very little that happens in this Chamber seems to get the publicity it deserves.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, suppose that if this amendment were to be accepted, retailers might get in a few token boxes of Balkan Sobranie or something that they do not normally stock merely to make up the number to 100. I really do not think that would happen in practice. It would be most unusual. In any case, if that is the case, why does it not happen in the Netherlands? The measure works in the Netherlands. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, says, we do not model our legislation automatically on that of the Netherlands, although as far as cannabis is concerned, the Government are moving slightly in that direction. However, I let that pass. The measure is up and working in the Netherlands. Does the noble Lord want to intervene?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: As regards cannabis, there has been no change in the legislation at all.
Lord Lucas: Perhaps the noble Lord wanted to add it to the Bill but was not allowed to.
Lord Monson: It has not been included in the legislation, but not all changes are legislated for, as we know. What has been overlooked is this enormous concession which is talked about by noble Lords who are in favour of the Bill. It is actually a tiny concession. People will not be allowed to plaster the walls of their shops with 10-foot high letters saying, XCome in, tobacco sold here". The Minister has enormous powers under Clause 6(1)(c). I do not object to that at all. The advertisements will be discreet and small, so we are not talking about anything very striking.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said earlier that he does not want to drive people out of business. I commend him for that. It is a very reassuring statement. However, following on from that, he suggested that we were trying to expand the number of 380. That is not the case at all. We are trying to prevent some of the 380 being driven out of business. The noble Lord says that he is in favour of that. If some of the smaller businesses which do not quite meet the test are not allowed to advertise, they will be driven out of business.
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