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Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, every noble Lord, by and large, knows about the powers of the Attorney-General. Can the noble and learned Lord say whether there is any precedent for the type of administrative power sought under the amendment to be put in the hands of one man, the Attorney-General?
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, it is not an administrative power. It is a statement that I was offering to publish guidance, to police and prosecutors, as to the circumstances in which I would consent to or institute proceedings. I shall come to precedent. I cannot change the Act. I do not seek to do so. It is not an administrative power to change the ingredients of the offence. It is to give some assurance on what I have said repeatedly in this House: that legitimate expressions of religious belief are not, in my view, criminal and will not be prosecuted. It is for that reason only.
I turn to the third question. Is it necessary to do so now? I was surprised to hear the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, suggest that it was not necessary to do it now. I have read to noble Lords what the Joint Committee on Human Rights said about this being a pressing social need, noting that the United Nations Human Rights Committee had urged us to introduce such legislation.
Although coupling it with the question of blasphemy, the noble Lord is on record as saying that reforms would protect minority groups such as Jews, Sikhs, Muslims or Hindus from serious public order offences without unnecessarily interfering with freedom of speech and that such a law would not threaten satire and powerful criticism of religious beliefs or the lack of them.
It is said that the Law Commission formed the view that it did not think such an offence was necessary. That is not right. In paragraph 2.35 of the report in 1985 the Law Commission said that,
- Xif such attacks appear to be or become a real social problem, the appropriate response in our view is not to extend the law of blasphemy but rather to adapt the present offence, penalising the publication of matter likely to arouse hatred towards persons on account of their race, so that it would penalise publication of matter likely to arouse hostility to others on account of their religious beliefs".
In other words, the Law Commission took the view a number of years ago—this is not a new issue—that if there was a pressing social need, then the right way to deal with it would be to introduce some fairness of this sort.
Ultimately, the question is whether to do it now. I urge noble Lords, despite the expressions that I have detected during the course of this debate, to follow what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark said. It is now that we can protect our community. It is now that we can send out a message that we want them not to be vulnerable; that we want to be inclusive. To throw this out now would be sending exactly the opposite message. I urge your Lordships not to send that message.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Campbell of Alloway moved Amendment No. 93.
- Leave out Clause 39.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to speak also to Amendment No. 94 and Amendment No. 95.
Lord Carter: My Lords, if it would help the noble Lord, I think that the House wishes to reach a decision on whether Amendment No. 93 should be dealt with. I think that the House wishes to come to a decision on that now and then, if he wishes to speak to the other amendments in their place on the list, of course he can do so.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord. The essence of the problem—
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, Amendment No. 93 has not been moved other than by myself.
Lord Carter: My Lords, if it would help the noble Lord, the debate has taken place around the virtues or otherwise of Clause 39. The House now wishes to reach a decision on whether Clause 39, as amended, should remain a part of the Bill. After the House has taken that decision, it can then move on to the other amendments to which the noble Lord wishes to speak.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I beg to move.
6.35 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 93) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 240; Not-Contents, 141.
Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Biffen, L.
Black of Crossharbour, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L. [Teller]
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Coe, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jacobs, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Saatchi, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Acton, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chan, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Ouseley, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peterborough, Bp.
Pitkeathley, B.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
6.45 p.m.
Clause 40 [Religiously aggravated offences]:
Clause 41 [Racial or religious hatred offences: penalties]:
[Amendments Nos. 95 and 96 not moved.]
Clause 42 [Hatred and fear offences: penalties]:
Clause 53 [Powers of entry]:
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