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Baroness Hamwee: Perhaps I can ask the Minister a couple of questions arising out of the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. First, with regard to rough sleeping, I would not for a moment deny the seriousness of the problem, but will the Minister tell us how localised it is? It seems to me, from what I have read, that while it may be a local problem, it is also one that manifests itself in areas other than that from which an individual may have come. It is therefore something that needs to be dealt with on more than simply a district-by-district basis.
Secondly, when I first read Amendment No. 1—and I do not for a moment disagree with my noble friend—I did wonder how it could be otherwise than that a review or homelessness strategy would be part of a wider ranging housing strategy, because local authorities just as much as central government need to join up their policies. I then began to wonder whether it was not likely to cause some problems to put it in this way, because there are other areas of policy work and strategies that need to have regard to housing strategy for a development plan.
Having made that point, why is it necessary to provide for the authority to have these two powers at all? If they do not already have powers to review homelessness and to formulate a homelessness strategy, that makes a nonsense of local authority activity and goes to support the arguments my colleagues and I have made for a power of general competence, but I do not believe that that can be the point.
It is important to get on the record that it is not necessary to spell out a power such as this in legislation, because if it is necessary to say that a local authority has such powers, that must call into question equivalent powers in different areas. For that reason I ask the Minister to confirm that it is convenient as a matter of drafting and readability of the Bill, but not necessary for legislation. There must be other similar powers that, if they needed legislation to spell them out, would be open to challenge as not being within the vires of a local authority.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: We have heard a lot of good sense in the past 15 minutes, based upon wide experience of being members of committees, chairmen of housing committees and so on. I am sure that the Minister will appreciate that that is because of anxiety, not nit-picking or meticulousness. The Minister and the ministry are well served if it can give assurances either that that which is being sought is not necessary, or that that which is being sought has been taken on board and will be taken account of in some other way.
The great concern of parliamentarians is, of course, to see things written on the face of the Bill. I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, rightly pointed out that there may not be a need for some of the things that have been mentioned to be written on the face of the Bill if we can understand what is being asked. It would have been unthinkable up to 10 or 15 years ago to have had a Bill dealing with the homeless. The homeless have always been with us to one degree or another and it is manifest of the Government's interest and determination to tackle the problem that they have found the time to produce this Bill in a very crowded legislative programme. We all know exactly what I mean in that context.
I accept everything I have heard pleading the case. But I am also willing to listen to the Minister when he tells us, as I am sure he will, that what is being sought is not necessary. Like many Members of the Committee who spoke earlier, I do not believe that a strategy can be complete without a direct reference to the homeless as a segment of our people—Xour people" being the people that we try to look after in the committees. I hope very much that the Minister will be able to give the assurances that colleagues are seeking and I look forward to hearing what he has to say.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (Lord Falconer of Thoroton): I agree with my noble friend. We have heard a great deal of good sense in the past 15 minutes and I hope that I shall be able to give the reassurances that noble Baronesses have been seeking in relation to what I suspect have in many cases been probing amendments.
I shall deal first with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, said by way of introduction. She is absolutely right that the effect of the order will be to increase the numbers of people legally in priority need. She is right to say that the number of households now housed in bed and breakfast has gone up to 11,000. She is also right to say that the problem is getting worse. I do not believe for one moment that she is suggesting that the right course is not to acknowledge that the problem is getting worse, nor is it the wrong course to extend the priority need order to those who are genuinely in priority need; for example, 16 and 17 year-olds. We should treat them as priority needs. As a result, the problem with which we are all wrestling is how then one delivers on making the law fit the environment in which we now operate.
The noble Baroness described Xan impossible task" being made worse by legislative changes. I did not understand her to be saying that the legislation was a
bad idea, but that it makes us face the difficulties with which we have to wrestle in determining how we deal with homelessness. Those are problems with which we need to deal, but we need to deal with them up-front and recognise that there are real problems that we all need to face.I turn to the first amendment, which the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, also addressed. Her first amendment would require local housing authorities to incorporate their homelessness strategy into their wider housing strategy. At the moment there is no statutory requirement on local housing authorities to have a housing strategy although in practice it is necessary under the Housing Investment Programme framework. Because there is no explicit requirement it would be inappropriate to impose a statutory requirement for an authority to make its statutory homelessness strategy part of its wider housing strategy. However, I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness is saying; that an authority's statutory homelessness strategy will inevitably be an integral part of its wider housing policy. It has to be. Clear advice to local housing authorities on this matter will be given in guidance.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Maddock and Lady Hamwee, both made the point that there would be other strategies as well that might affect homelessness. That is plainly right and the guidance will focus on that as well because it is necessary for people to look at homelessness in a context that is much wider than simply bricks and mortar. I hope that that deals with the first amendment.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 4 relate to rough sleepers. They are not explicitly mentioned, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said in her remarks: therefore could we make it clear on the face of the Bill that homelessness includes rough sleepers? I entirely understand her concern. Of course we would want homelessness strategies to deal with rough sleepers. However, I hope that she will accept my assurance that rough sleeping is already covered by the definition of Xhomeless" employed in the Bill.
The definition appears in Section 175 of the Housing Act 1996 and clearly includes rough sleeping, for it covers those who have no accommodation available for their occupation. Moreover, the Code of Guidance will make it clear that authorities will need to take account of rough sleeping in their reviews and in devising their strategies. The situation is legally covered, but if that is not sufficient—which it probably is not—we will also make it clear in guidance that the homelessness strategies must cover rough sleepers as well as everything else.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee asked specifically how localised it is. Rough sleepers frequently come from other areas. Frequently, people in rough sleepers' accommodation will tell you that they got on the train intending to go to Newcastle, but got off at Nottingham, for reasons that they are inadequately able to explain. The problem moves around. Prevention is vital in addressing all forms of homelessness in the future.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I wondered whether you went through Nottingham to get to Newcastle.
4 p.m.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: That thought occurred to me as I made that comment. I was not sure whether the train line went that way. I should have said the Newark. We hope that prevention will also be addressed.
Amendments Nos. 3, 5, 8 and 9, would insert further definitions regarding organisations that the local housing authority must involve in its work on a homelessness strategy. The need for the local authority to work in partnership and not alone underlies the amendments. We entirely endorse that approach. A partnership approach is central to our proposals. We require local housing authorities, of which the noble Baroness has experience, to take a multi-agency strategic approach to preventing and responding to homelessness.
Clauses 1 to 3 set up the basis for such a strategy and require that it be kept under review. Amendment No. 3 specifies bodies whose role in tackling homelessness should be considered in the course of a local housing authority's homelessness review. The other amendments, which are to an extent consequential, would allow a housing authority to include references to actions to be undertaken by strategic partners in its homelessness strategy and Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 would oblige housing authorities to consult strategic partners and, in particular, the Housing Corporation, housing associations and RSLs, before adopting or modifying a homelessness strategy.
Many agencies are involved with people who are homeless or at risk of becoming homeless and it is important that those agencies work together to avoid duplication or gaps in provision. Local housing authorities should of course work with other authorities and agencies in conducting reviews and in drawing up strategies. We have in mind social services authorities and departments, health services and those administering housing benefit, among others.
Registered social landlords will be central to the development and implementation of homelessness strategies. In some areas they provide the majority of social housing and the transfer programme is increasing their importance in delivering services to tenants and in supporting local authorities in the performance of their statutory duties. I held a meeting with the key stakeholder organisations on 21st November to discuss the way forward on homelessness. I am pleased to say that it was agreed at that meeting that the Housing Corporation, the Association of London Government and the Local Government Association would work on an agreed programme for closer co-operation between RSLs and local housing authorities on tackling homelessness. I have asked to be kept informed of progress.
This morning, I met 15 of the major RSLs to discuss how they can help local authorities to meet their homelessness duties. That will be followed up early in the new year with a joint seminar for RSLs and local
housing authorities. A wide range of other bodies should also be engaged, including probation services and voluntary organisations working with young people or with those suffering from mental health problems. Organisations that deal with rough sleepers also have a vital role to play.Again, I repeat for the third time that I agree with the noble Baroness that the involvement of bodies cited in her amendment are vital to ensure effective local strategies. As it stands, the Bill enables local housing authorities to ensure that the potential contribution of such bodies is considered at the review stage, that their activities may—with their agreement—be outlined in the resulting homelessness strategy and that they are consulted on the adoption or modification of the strategy. This is by virtue of the references at Clause 2(1)(c) and Clause 3(3)(b) and Clause 3(8), to,
- XXvoluntary organisations and other persons".
Homeless and multiple occupation landlords, and members of landlords' forums and clearly Xother persons", and the housing corporation is a Xpublic authority", so all the persons or bodies mentioned in the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, are already covered. From what I have said, I hope that it is clear that we completely share the approach that she outlined in moving her amendment. I can, in addition, assure the noble Baroness that clear guidance will be given to housing authorities as to the organisations they should engage with throughout the process of carrying out homelessness reviews and formulating strategies.
We should steer clear of placing such detailed and prescriptive requirements on the face of the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, would be the first to criticise the Government, quite rightly, for placing too many tick-box requirements on the face of the Bill. The Government are confident that the Bill already achieves what the noble Baroness has sought to ensure by tabling those amendments.
Let me move to Amendment No. 6, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, on supporting people. The noble Baroness will forgive me if I do not deal with the detailed drafting of the amendment because she has made it clear, in moving her amendment, that she wishes to use it as an opportunity to raise concerns about the supporting people programme. The noble Baroness stated her concerns about the Government's funding regime for supporting people and the potential effects, in particular but not exclusively, on small voluntary groups. I am pleased to be able to reassure her on this point. Supporting people payments will be determined by contracts entered into between the local authority commissioning body and the service provider, and these contracts will last between three and five years. Supporting people funds are not allocated via a bidding round.
My department is very sensitive to the concerns of small voluntary organisations regarding the impact of supporting people and has taken a number of steps to address those concerns.
These include research into the black and minority ethnic sector, which the noble Baroness did not mention but which is a concern to significant numbers of people, on the basis of which guidance is being produced. This guidance is due to be published in January. Whilst the guide and research was primarily aimed at the black and minority ethnic sector, this is predominantly made up of small organisations and therefore much of the content is equally relevant to all small organisations. The guidance is mainly intended for local authorities but also mainstream providers and black and minority ethnic-led providers.
My department, through the supporting people programme, has a contract with the Housing Associations Charitable Trust to disperse grant funds to small organisations. This money is intended to enable small local and community-based housing support agencies to participate in the supporting people implementation process, locally and regionally, by building the capacity of the voluntary sector and enabling support service agencies to participate effectively in the supporting people strategies and plans.
In addition, the supporting people team at the department is currently drawing up a proposal to provide funds for two capacity-building co-ordinators to work with local authorities to assist small organisations to develop their capacity to play an effective role in the provision of services. They will also aim to develop information systems with community organisations so the needs and experiences of their client group can feed into both local and regional supporting people planning processes.
A number of supporting people workshops have been organised to engage the black and minority ethnic sector in the supporting people programme and to encourage them to start preparing for implementation in 2003. Other events are planned for 2002, so there is a good deal of work going on to try to address the specific concerns. The noble Baroness raised the question of what will happen after 2003 but much of the answer to that will depend on what happens in the build-up to 2003. I shall write in more detail as to what the present proposals are in relation to post-2003. If the noble Baroness has particular concerns about what I have said—and I do not ask her to raise them now as it is quite a dense answer—I suggest she raises them with me. I shall be more than happy to have a meeting with her to discuss any particular concerns that arise out of the detail of what I have said in my answer to her important amendment, because the Supporting People programme has a significant impact on dealing with homelessness, in particular in relation to various preventative measures that we hope will become the norm among local authorities.
Amendment No. 7 is the last amendment in the group that I have to deal with. This would place a further duty on a local housing authority when it has
formulated its homelessness strategy not only to refer to its allocation scheme in that strategy but also to set out the relative priorities that will be accorded to homeless people and others to whom a housing duty is owed by the authority under that scheme. This takes us well beyond the sensible limits of a homelessness strategy. The principal purpose of these strategies is for the housing authority, with the assistance of social services authorities, and in consultation with other bodies, including RSL and voluntary organisations, to set out how it will tackle and prevent homelessness in its area. This is no small task and it will not be made any easier by an unnecessary requirement to address issues relating to the authority's allocation scheme. However, if an authority thinks it wise to refer to its allocation scheme, it will be more than able to do so in its homelessness strategy.New Section 167 provides a robust framework for authorities to allocate accommodation. It requires that reasonable preference be given to certain groups, including the homeless; and that the allocation scheme may be framed to give additional preference to particular descriptions of people within the reasonable preference categories; and that the scheme may also contain provision for determining priorities in allocating housing accommodation to people within the reasonable preference categories. I am sure that we shall explore the detail of those allocation schemes later in our deliberations. However, the allocation scheme is the proper place to set out the relevant priorities, not the homelessness strategy. I should also note that authorities are already required to provide information about their allocation schemes under Section 168 of the 1996 Act.
I very much hope that I have answered all the particular points that have been raised in the course of this short but interesting and important debate. I hope to be able to persuade the noble Baroness to withdraw Amendment No. 1.
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