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Lord Lipsey: My Lords, that is precisely the point. That is what was done in the 1970s. The point has been marvellously made that the matter is now about training, contestability of services, proper complaint
mechanisms and the correct motivation of staff. Those are the issues that matter to people, not whether their room is three inches bigger or smaller. Those 1973 standards should be dead by now.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, if my noble friend had been a little patient, I should have come to that. My point was that the standards are not, as it were, plucked out of the air. They are based on thinking around this area that has been going on for many years. As I said, I also accept that while I want good physical standards, the outcome of care is crucial. The National Care Standards Commission has taken that point on board. I look forward to further debates on those issues.
The Government have shown, in their willingness to apply long lead-in times for compliance, a flexibility of approach that has been warmly welcomed. Ms Anne Parker, the chair of the commission, and Mr Ron Kerr, the director, are serious and sensible people who wish to take a serious and sensible approach.
I shall desist from debating free nursing care again, although I suspect that this is not the last time on which we shall debate that interesting issue. Like my noble friend, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, was not here to debate that.
I, least of all, do not doubt that there is real pressure in the care home sector; there is no question about that. In discussions over the past few months with people in the NHS and social services departments about planning capacity for winter pressures andas noble Lords often point out to meall-year-round pressures, the situation in the care home sector often comes up as an issue. All of us are exercised about that issue.
Our approach involves an immediate injection of funds in relation to bed-blocking, to give greater stability; more resources that are more directly allocated to local authorities for personal social services spending; the partnership agreement, which is very much based on getting stability and good relations between local authorities and care home providers; and, finally, the work that is being undertaken to consider issues such as viability, profitability and capacity in the care-home sector. I hope that we will be able to publish our report very soon. Those are the essential ingredients for sorting out the problem. That cannot happen overnight, but we can give a message of hope to the sector.
The sector must recognise that it does not function in an unchanging world. The emphasis in future will not just be on residential places; it will also be on exciting, innovative packages in the community. I hope that the sector is prepared to advance schemes that will take advantage of that. We are indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, for allowing us to discuss these very important issues.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, the Minister ended as he begancharmingly. We expect as much from him. As he said, the ingredients are in place; the trouble is that there are not enough of them.
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. It has been extremely instructiveas much to me as to the Governmentand it was a worthwhile use of our time.
When I began drafting my speech a few days ago, I recognised that this was a sadly topical subject and a source of anxiety. Just how topical I had not realised until earlier today when I learned of a residential home in Kentone of many maintained by the voluntary sector, if I may so express itthat is at serious risk of closure because of the pressures mentioned in this debate.
I should have mentioned the work of the voluntary sector earlierI did notand that of the Kent Community Housing Trust in particular. Its work is valuable and it is no less liable to the pressures and their consequences than the other two sectors that I did mention.
Noble Lords confirmed that the crisis is not confined to Kent or even to the South East. In varying degrees, it is found throughout the country. I began my opening speech by expressing the hope that the Minister or the Government would take the crisis on board and meet the urgent need with no less urgent action.
The Minister told us of various proposals that are in the pipeline. I am afraid that I was not convinced that the urgency of the situation is being met with measures that will bring urgent palliatives.
Since we have a minute or two remaining I shall briefly recapitulate the anxieties of noble Lords. As a neophytethe noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, accurately used that descriptionI was rather relieved to find that my points were confirmed by people with much more experience on the ground. The noble Lord referred to the desperate expedients being resorted to by the independent sector in order to cope with current pressures. To be fair, that point was reiterated by the Minister. The noble Lord's words were well chosen. He said that the losses of beds in that sector were accelerating and he spoke of the frightening cost of new regulations. That was a theme throughout the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, confirmed the grave loss of beds and the consequences of bed-blocking in national health hospitals. He spoke about the difficulties of recruitment and retention in homesa matter upon which I had not touchedand he cited the King's Fund. My noble friend Lord Astor spoke of the regional variations in funding and the adverse disparity that the South East, in particular, experiences.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, spoke with authority, if I may say so, as a member of Oxfordshire County Council. He spoke of the drastic cost-cutting that was necessary in that authority and, I am sure, in others, in order to channel more money to areas of most need, including homes for the elderly and the frail. He saidI was glad that he had it confirmed by the Ministerthat there is a need for long-term, bankable funding policies. I venture to say that it is not
enough to have expedient, short-term policies but that what is needed is long-term planning that is bankable and can be relied upon.The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, spoke of costs rising faster than the SSAs. She confirmed my figure of #1 billion for the shortfall in funding overall. My noble friend Lord Howe spoke of the crisis in the provision of care. Apropos of bed-blocking, he coined what I considered to be the remarkable and very telling aphorism that not only is there a waiting list to get into hospital; there is now a waiting list to get out of hospital when one no longer needs hospital care but cannot be accommodated in the type of home that one needs.
I see why the long-term members of this club, to which I am a neophyte, so enjoy their encounters with the Minister. The noble Lord does it all with such tremendous charm. One begins to feel reassured towards the end because of the way in which he answers. But then one looks at the measures that are proposed and asks oneself the vulgar question, XWhere is the beef?". There is not too much beef now or in the immediate short term. But that is what is needed. In the short term, more homes will go out of business. Whatever exciting new measures are proposed and cooked upI do not wish to undervalue themthey will not do anything for the people who at present are trying to struggle with the problems on the ground.
At bottom, the problem is that Her Majesty's Government seek improvements in standards from homesoften homes that have improved greatly in recent times, although some need to do morewithout providing the means of paying for them. That is the problem. It is, of course, admirable to legislate for a better deal for the frail and the vulnerable. But it is less admirable, to put it mildly, to neglect to provide the necessary means and to try to offload the resulting costs or the resulting failures on to local authorities which are in the straits described by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw.
Her Majesty's Government are not resiling from the principle that SSAs will provide for the kind of proportion of costs that we are used to. But the combination of too small SSA increases and expensive statutory upratings of standards, and so on, amounts to much the same thing but in a less open way. I do not believe that we should let this subject drop, and I shall be most surprised if we do. However, for the present, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Hooper rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what is their current policy towards Gibraltar; and what recent developments there have been.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I start by declaring two interests as a member of the All-Party Group for Gibraltar and as a member of the All-Party Group for Spain. As many of your Lordships know, my interests in Gibraltar arose during my days as a Member of the European Parliament, when I was one of 12 all-party MEPs asked to look after the interests of Gibraltar. It is my hope today that, in replying, the Minister will be able to give a clear statement about the present situation and about the Government's intentions both for the immediate future and the long term. I hope that that will go some way to allay Xthe anxiety and anger" felt by the people of Gibraltar, to quote the Chief Minister, Peter Caruana, when he addressed the meeting of the all-party group recently.
Perhaps before embarking on a scrutiny of current policies, it would be helpful in setting the scene if I were to start with a brief historic outline. The modern story of Gibraltar begins with the Moors, who drove out the Visigoths at the beginning of the eighth century and remained in occupation of the Rock for 751 years until 1462. The Spanish then controlled Gibraltar for 242 years until 1704, when it was seized by a joint Anglo-Dutch military force during the war of Spanish Succession. The peace treaty which settled that war was signed in Utrecht in 1713. The treaty ceded Gibraltar to the United Kingdom in perpetuity, and the territory has remained under uninterrupted British control ever since.
To come back a little closer to the present, I believe that we all recognise that the people of Gibraltar were tremendous allies during two world wars and that the Rock has been of great strategic significance. We also all know that Franco closed the frontier. That isolated Gibraltar and, when democracy returned to Spain in the mid-1970s, the frontier was reopened. Unfortunately, it was reopened rather grudgingly, and the present unsatisfactory situation remains. The border controls cause daily irritation for those in transit between Spain and Gibraltar. I had always hoped that the European Union would provide an umbrella to resolve the problem. Gibraltar joined the EU in 1973 when we did and then Spain joined in 1985. I thought, XOh, good. Everything will be resolved now". Unfortunately, that was not the case.
Therefore, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe have been holding talks with their opposite numbers in Spain. There has been much comment in both the British and the Spanish press about that. I suspect that one of the current problems is that Gibraltarians probably read the Spanish as well as the British press, and that puts a distinctly different gloss on what is going on.
There have been Questions and debates on this issue in both Housesthere was even one yesterday in your Lordships' Houseand I suspect that Ministers may be becoming weary of responding to it. The House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee held hearings at which the Chief Minister, Peter Caruana, was interviewed, as well as the Minister for Europe, the right honourable Peter Hain. I understand that the report of those hearings is due out tomorrow.
I believe that all the furore has come about because the Foreign Secretary, in all good faith, seeks to resolve the irritations to which I have referred and which continue to exist. Many of them are petty and many are said to interfere with our good relations with Spain. He has courteously met with members of the all-party group, as indeed has the Minister for Europeeven this afternoon. But still the alarm and despondence continue in Gibraltar.
Therefore, perhaps the question that should be asked is: why hold talks now? Perhaps those talks give rise to unease. Attempts to resolve the situation have been made by previous governments. I am glad that my noble and learned friend Lord Howe is joining in to explain some of the progress that was made in his day. In my view, this is definitely not a party political issue. I believe that there is nothing more sinister about the meetings than the fact that the Secretary of State represents a new broom and he wants to get these irritating issues out of the way. Perhaps it is also significant that Spain is due to hold the presidency of the European Union from January of next year. Perhaps that, too, has created pressure to get something done. In the words of the Chief Minister, Peter Caruana, we must also recognise that no government have been more disposed to dialogue with Spain than the present one in Gibraltar. Indeed, early in his administration he went to Madrid and held meetings with the then Spanish Foreign Minister.
Perhaps I may take a long-term look at the solutions. There is, first, the continuation of the status quo which, from statements made in another place, Her Majesty's Government appear to support. It has been clearly said that it is Xno" to a handover of sovereignty to Spain and Xno" to independence, which is the preferred choice of some Gibraltarians. Secondly, there is the preference of the Spanish Government; that is, that Gibraltar should become an autonomia of Spain and have a status similar to that of Catalonia and the other 17 autonomias, but with even more rights, freedoms and independence. That is not agreeable to the people of Gibraltar. A third solution has been suggested in the past, which is to scrap the Treaty of Utrecht, which is out of date and unobserved in many of its provisions. I call that solution the XAndorra solution". It means independent status under some sort of joint patronage. That could be our Queen and the King of Spain, or the Prince of Wales and the Principe de Asturias, perhaps. That seems to me to be another possible solution. I shall be interested to hear the Minister's comments on such possibilities.
In the short term, there are other issues to be resolved, such as the talks. They have not been attended by the Chief Minister, who wishes to have meetings held only if it is back to the Xtwo flags, three voices" procedure. If the Spanish Government are as well disposed as we are led to believe, why will they not agree to that? There is the issue of voting rights in the European Union elections. I welcome the statement made by the Minister for Europe that legislation is being prepared in order to have Gibraltarians represented in the elections in 2004, the next elections to the European Parliament. Lord Bethell, who
worked hard on this issue, will be delighted to hear that. I should be interested to know the timetable for that legislation, if the noble Baroness is able to give that to the House.There is also much reference to the damage to our relations with Spain. I was hard put to discover any concrete examples of how our good relations with Spain have been affected as a result of our support of the British citizens of Gibraltar. I emphasise that this is not an isolated issue, although Gibraltar is unique, both in terms of the strategic role that it has played in the past and because it is part of the European Union. Any decision made about the future of Gibraltar will have repercussions in other overseas territories, which may have neighbouring powers all too ready and willing to take over management of those affairs which the territories are not deemed capable of managing for themselves. It is not only the people of Gibraltar but the British citizens in all the overseas territories who are following this saga with close interest.
It is in the nature of the debate and the constraints of procedure that I shall not have the right to reply. I should like to anticipate a couple of questions which might arise and comments which are often asserted by Spanish people to whom I have spoken. The first is, XYou have given back Hong Kong to China. Why can't you do the same for Gibraltar?" We know that Gibraltar was ceded in perpetuity, and for Hong Kong we had a time limit. Secondly, there is the issue of smuggling. Apart from the lack of evidence, if we are being meticulous about rules and regulations, what about the Spanish fishermen? Even now, an all-party maritime group has been considering that issue.
In conclusion, I hope that the debate will send out a clear signal to the people of Gibraltar that their friends understand their anxieties and stand ready to give their support when needed. I am grateful to all those who are to speak and look forward to hearing the Minister's response.
Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, I understand the Government's wish to resolve the continuing impasse with Spain over the Gibraltar question. Obviously, it is desirable that Spain's attitude to Gibraltar should be better. There seems no sensible reason why Spain should continue to provoke hostility. Nor, in my view, is there a sensible reason for Spain to rest its case on Article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht, the pre-industrial revolution treaty, which came at a time when the concept of democracy was merely a minor notion and the rights of men were flagrantly ignored.
I recall the pleasure I felt, as did many others, at the end of the long Franco years when Spain joined the democratic community in Europe. I was present when Spain took its seat in the Council of Europe, when it subscribed to the Convention on Human Rights and the principles of democracy and when it then followed that membership and accession by eagerly supporting the recognition and establishment of the sovereignty of a large number of states. The expansion of the Council of Europe and the end of the Cold War demanded the
recognition of sovereignty of states which had not even been thought of in the middle of the 19th century. I found particularly interesting the eager enthusiasm with which Spain most emphatically supported the recognition by and membership of the Council of Europe of states such as Andorra, with a population of 65,000, San Marino with a population of 26,000, and Liechtenstein with a population of 32,000, a state not formed until six years after the Treaty of Utrecht.At the same timeI am grateful to the noble Baroness for speaking about its historythe state of Spain did not really exist until Granada and Navarra had been absorbed into Spain by 1512. That means that Gibraltar was part of Spain for well over 100 years less than its involvement with Britain. Yet we have a situation in which the hostility continues. Spain appears to have made no attempt to win the hearts and minds of Gibraltar. Its hostility over the years has been remarkable.
I recall, about a decade ago, being at an RAF station and being given an opportunity to fly an aircraft simulator. I was invited to try to land a Nimrod in Gibraltar. I can remember the comforting words of the squadron leader standing behind me who said, XPeter, on this occasion you can fly through the Rock". I would certainly have done so in real life to avoid Spanish airspace. The fact remains that Spain has been remarkably foolish. It has shown hostility when wisdom would have generated a great deal more political benefit.
At the same time, Spain may well imagine that if it maintains its present political approach, it can win. However, I believe that people are becoming a little irritated by Spain. For example, over the past few years, by the singularly vigorous use of its diplomatic service, Spain has secured a disproportionate number of important political positions in the free world. I refer to the Council of Europe, WEU, OSCE, NATO, and the European second pillar. That is a disproportionate number of positions, given Spain's population of 32 million. It has ignored a number offor exampleEuropean Union steel policies. I recall a steel works in my then constituency which was doing very well. Spain could not possibly compete with it until the Spanish Government gave huge public support in utter defiance of EU policy.
I recallI have mentioned this in the House previously but I shall touch on it again because it is relevanthow the Spanish were among the leading voices calling for the establishment of the European second pillar. France was equal in its enthusiasm. However, when we became slightly anxious about the excessive zeal that Spain was displaying in that regard, its Ministers invited the Defence Committee to go to Madrid to discuss the matter. When we arrived we were told that the meeting had been cancelled. We were put onto an aircraft and flown to the historic shipyard of Ferrol to be given a demonstration of Spain's contribution to European security. We were shown an aircraft carrier which was near completion. The British members then discovered that the aircraft carrier was intended for the Royal Thailand Navy to
serve as flagship and royal yacht for the King of Thailand. It was not a contribution to the EU security policy which Spain was so avidly supporting.I do not want to criticise Spain. I have friends in Spain. I want to see a sensible relationship between Spain and this country. I also want to see decency to the people of Gibraltar. I trust that the Government will seek to persuade Spain to change its approach and to win hearts and minds. If it does it will very rapidly reverse the situation which it should have taken more seriously when just 44 people in Gibraltar voted for a link with Spain in a recent referendum.
I emphasise to my noble friend that it would be highly desirable for Britain, and perhaps the international community, to urge Spain, along with Britain, to submit this case to the International Court of Justice in the hope that it can come to a conclusion which will solve the impasse and allow Spain and Gibraltar and Gibraltarians to live happily together. That will enable British and Spanish relationships to be as good as they should be.
Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, I am glad to be able to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hardy, in order to echo his closing words. The objective which we all seek is good relations between our country and Spain, and a prosperous, peaceful and hopeful future for the people of Gibraltar. Despite my legal background, I would not immediately look towards a court resolution of the problem. But that is a different matter.
I also thank my noble friend Lady Hooper for initiating this very important debate. She rightly drew attention to the historic importance of Gibraltar in the history of this country and to the loyalty of its people through many adverse circumstances. She also rightly drew attention to the possibly valuable role of our joint membership of the European Union. She speaks with authority on this subject because of her distinguished service as a Member of the European Parliament in the halcyon days when Merseyside was represented in that institution by a Conservative MEP. We all look forward to the return of that prospect, although not perhaps to its representation by my noble friend.
I do not want to compete with Queen Mary and say that Gibraltar is engraved on my heart. Certainly, it occupies a very important position in my recollection of my six years at the Foreign Office. It is probably the biggest disappointment of my time there. I thought that we had left it on track for a solution along the right lines. That has not happened. The Brussels agreement, which lead to the opening of the frontier was also designed to lead, and did lead, to the accession of Spain to the European Union and indeed to NATO. I attended in Madrid as well as at Lisbon to sign the Treaty of Accession for Spain to the European Union. Senor Fernando Moran negotiated that agreement with me and set the Brussels process under way. We would not attach any importance to the name, any more than our predecessors, the noble
Lords, Lord Carrington and Lord Owen, would attach importance to the Lisbon process which was also derailed.I think I am right in saying that the then Chief Minister, Sir Joshua Hassan, was present at all the key negotiations leading to the Brussels agreement. I do not thinkbut I cannot be surethat he took a direct part in triangular discussion, but he certainly met the Spanish delegation, and we all recognised that his voice was one to which we must listen.
It is quite clear that the voice of the people of Gibraltar must be of decisive importance as we look for a solution. Some people question the legitimacy of even seeking a solution to this issue. Some people write and speak as though the search for improvement in this position is in some way, ex hypothesi, disloyaldisloyal to the people of Gibraltar and disloyal to the British interests. I reject that absolutely. If one is to reject that rationally and to understand the unwisdom of condemning that as disloyalty, it is necessary to understand the present position. The fact is that the present position is doing harm to every party concerned. It is doing harm to Spain itself. It has a historic grievance, and one can understand that. For Spain to have a small corner of territory outside its own country but very close as an area of persistent economic, social and political concern must in itself be undesirable.
Gibraltar has a similar set of problems to confront. These have already been mentioned by my noble friend. There is a limit to its prospect of political progress; there are recurrent economic and social shocks; the frontier closes and opens; and there is no present arrangement for its representation in the European Union. To all our partners in the European Union there are recurrent failures to achieve agreement because of the persistence of this obstacle. The United Kingdom suffers disadvantage because of the other things that could go wrong. All those disadvantages to our European partners affect us. We have a potential running sore in our relationship with Spain, despite all the other areas where we have good relations. We share with the people of Gibraltarpeople for whom we have an inescapable sense of responsibilitytheir sense of frustration at the persistence of this grievance.
In terms of British selfish interest, which some Spanish commentators say is the reason for our position, we have virtually no selfish interests in the perpetuation of the present situation of conflict. The days of the coaling station and of a naval dockyard for repair services have passed. The Gibraltar dockyard became like those in our own country which had to face economic pressures and therefore ceased to play the part they used to play.
Far and away the greatest British interest in the situation is in a resolution of this dispute on terms acceptable to the other parties. The continuance of the dispute is against everyone's interests.
The background starts in the Treaty of Utrecht, in the sense that our title and the Spanish claim to the reversion of sovereignty are rooted in that. The word
Xalways" looms out of that treaty as one factor. It is a word that prudent politicians today would never use, I fancy. On the other hand, before the preamble to the constitution of Gibraltar in 1969, it is set out that we would Xnever" make the change of sovereignty of Gibraltar without the consent of the people. So one has a Xnever" confronting an Xalways". If one is to find a solution, it is essential that both sidesI say Xboth sides" because it is really only Gibraltar and Spain that are contending with each otherin seeking to find a solution, are willing to make changes to their positions.As has already been said by both the previous speakers, if a solution in the long-term is to be found, Spain must surely acknowledge the need to secure the consent of the people of Gibraltar. It must surely regulate its conduct and attitude in relation to these matters with a view to achieving that outcome. In effect, it must win their trustto be able to win a referendum in the last resortif it is to find a final solution to the problem. It must abandon any ideas that harassment or obstruction can win any advantage at all.
The frontier that I thought was open at the time of the Brussels agreement has been recurrently shut. It is a permanent irritant in this situation. Disputes over licences, passports and telephone numbers can all be resolved with good will.
But Gibraltar must be ready to move as well. First, above all, it must surely abandon the opposition that some express to joint use and development of the airport. Nothing would do more good to the economic development of southern Spain and Gibraltar than to implement the agreementwhich, again, I thought that I had reached with Senor Fernandez Ordonez way back. Unhappily, implementation of that agreement was blocked by the reluctance of the Gibraltar legislature to see it through. That remains the position today, although many voices in Gibraltar, not least the Gibraltar Chamber of Commerce, now see the necessity for it.
The fact that the legislature could block that in that way is a real demonstration of the need for consent in the whole process. Mr Peter Caruana has recognised the other component. Some time ago, he said:
Discussion of that aspect will be made possible only on the basis of growing wider trust and confidence between the peoples of Spain and Gibraltar. Progress of that kind requires, above all, the willingness of the parties concernedGibraltar as well as Spainto meet and talk to each other. They must find ways in
which they can work together by effectively securing joint use of the airport and by cessation of harassment of any kind. Spain must be willing to view the people of Gibraltar as it should if it is to reach its objective and if the people of Gibraltar are to be reassured in the way that I should like.
Lord Brett: My Lords, I should like to begin by declaring an interest. For some 25 years, I was an officiallatterly, the general secretaryof the Institution of Professional Civil Servants, which became the Institution of Professionals, Managers and Specialists, a trade union organising on Gibraltar for about 65 to 70 years. As my noble friend the Minister is well aware, my union had a series of major difficulties in Gibraltar. The closure of the dockyard has been mentioned. There were naval base issues. We still have more than 800 members on the RockI say we; I have no formal relationship with the union any more, I am retired. But, needless to say, the people that I have known for a quarter of a century have been anxious to let me know their views and concerns. They have written to me and I have received more e-mails than usual because of their concern.
I am grateful to both the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for setting out some of the history and to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, whose great experience in the matter brings us up to date. A point on which there is total agreement is that we need a solution that is acceptable to all. The problem in Gibraltar is people's great anxiety that, to put it crudely, they will be sold out. Everybody in Gibraltar would agree with the view expressed by the noble and learned Lord that the British have no selfish interest in retaining Gibraltar. However, many of them would turn that on its head and say that the British want to get rid of the problem.
That judgment may be unjust. I have already told my former colleagues and the members of the unionnow named Prospectin Gibraltar that I have every faith in the integrity of the Ministers concerned. Two issues concern my former colleagues: one is the role of the Chief Minister in any such talks; the second is the back-stop that the issue of sovereignty will, in the final analysis, be put to a referendum. At the union's request, I am visiting Gibraltar next week, and I should be grateful if I could take assurances from my noble friend the Minister. I should also like to pose her a couple of questions that have been posed to me.
First, on the question of the role of the Chief Minister, if there are to be confidence-building talks leading to a solution that everyone can accept, my former colleagues believe it essential that the Chief Minister be involved in trilateral talks with the Governments of Spain and the United Kingdom, and they are aware of the precedent set by the previous Chief Minister but one, Sir Joshua Hassan. There is no division between the political parties in Gibraltar on that issue.
During my many years dealing with Gibraltar, I had some lively battles with Mr Joe Bassano, the previous Chief Minister, the current Chief Minister, the
Ministry of Defence and other establishments. I learnt that we had for many years been anxious to ensure that those on Gibraltar recognised their allegiance to the United Kingdom. Some of my union's members were born in the United Kingdom, but many are for many generations Gibraltarian. They have always looked to the United Kingdom for further education and technical trainingI believe that the Chief Minister was at one stage trained in the United Kingdom, as were most prominent Gibraltarians. They accept that there should be a solution acceptable to all, but are uneasy about the limited role given to the Chief Minister and the fact that whatever input Gibraltar has, in the final analysis, any decision will be made between the two Governments without their involvement.That may not be the end of the story, if they can rely upon a referendum. The question is: what does the referendum represent? Will it be solely on the issue of sovereignty? Is there a difference between legal sovereignty and the sovereignty of not being interfered with in the running of one's business by another government or party? I should be grateful for some reassurance on that from my noble friend the Minister. From my e-mails and telephone conversations, I know that those are the Gibraltarians' considerable anxieties.
If anything, the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, in her eloquent and moderate presentation, may have slightly understated some of the difficulties. I agree with my noble friend Lord Hardy of Wath that, when democracy returned to that country, the Spanish Government would have better pursued their interests had they been more accommodating.
Gibraltarians sometimes have to spend two and a half hours getting across the border at the caprice of a policeman who decides when it opens and when it shuts and that the bonnet and the boot must be opened, while the next car may be waved through because he feels that he likes the person or knows them. That is not irritation; that is harassment. That has taken its toll on the confidence of Gibraltarians to believe that talks in which they are not fully included will lead to solutions acceptable to all. If we are to make progressI accept much of the analysis of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavonbuilding confidence and carrying Gibraltarians with us from the beginning of the process to the end is the only way. I look forward to some reassurance on those points from my noble friend the Minister.
Lord Thomas of Swynnerton: My Lords, an encouraging aspect of the present situation is that, for the first timeif the reports from the meetings of Senor Pique and Mr Straw in Barcelona are correctthe Government seem to look on Gibraltar as a problem to be solved and not, to put it perhaps too strongly, a redoubt to be defended. I hope that we might now be able to start from scratch without too much attention to old commitments such as the Treaty of Utrechtor even the 1969 Gibraltar constitution.
Of course, they have legal significance and will continue to have such. They are period piecesrather good antiques in some respectsbut, in the case of the Treaty of Utrecht, not entirely creditable. The treaty obliged Britain to keep Jews and Moors off the Rock. That was not doneas a matter of fact, the dominant politician in Gibraltar during much of the second part of the 20th century, Sir Joshua Hassan, a delightful individual, was, I think, both.
The Treaty of Utrecht gave Britain the right to import 4,800 slaves into the Spanish empire. That is not something on which we now seem to rely for our commercial interest in Latin America. The treaty gave no firm basis for the occupation of the neutral ground on which we built the airport in 1938. Of course, the Gibraltar constitution is less of an antique. Nevertheless, it was written at a time very different from the present. General Franco was still in power. Spain had not entered the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, nor the European Union. Your Lordships may say that that is unimportant, but the fact is that the North Atlantic Treaty obliges Britain to defend all Spanish territory. We are obliged to defend La Linea and Algeciras, just as much as Spain is obliged to defend Dover Castle and the Isle of Wight.
Therefore, I believe that we ought to consider the situation from scratch. We ought also to consider the interests and preoccupations of all three parties concerned. Furthermore, let us not forget the important remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, in which he pointed out that the present situation causes damage to all three parties concerned.
Let us first consider the British position. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, pointed our most eloquently, for generations Gibraltar played a large part in British strategic thinking. No such defence preoccupation exists today, not even as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, pointed out, a coaling station or naval dockyard. Britain has a responsibility to ensure that any change should be carried out justly and fairly. We have not always done that in our past abandonment of political positions outside this country, but we must try and do so in this case.
As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, said, it is also important to appreciate the fact that we need and want good relations with Spain. Spain is a natural ally of this country within the European Union. It is an important trading partner and several hundred thousand British people live there permanently.
Moreover, we should not forget the interests of Spain because they exist. There is not just the residual right under the Treaty of Utrecht if Britain should consider divesting herself of responsibility for Gibraltar. Obviously, Spain must have a strategic interest in the future of the Rock. She could not accept, for exampleI do not suggest that it is a possibilitya terrorist government in Gibraltar or one which, like General Noriega's government in Panama, was concerned primarily to sell drugs. Even a demagogic government, such as Mr Mintoff had in Malta, would cause a good deal of difficulty in Spain.
Perhaps we should remember that Spain was most understanding in relation to the recent crisis deriving from the damage to the submarine XFearless". Perhaps she was more helpful to this country than was the Gibraltarian government, but it reminded us that those waters are of Spanish interest. A nuclear submarine sinks in the Bay of Algeciras and that is a main consideration for any Spanish government.
Childish though it may seemthe noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, touched on the matterthe fight of the Rock often seems to Spaniards a reminder of past humiliation. No doubt that should not be so but we can imagine that if by any chance a Spanish admiral had seized Dover Castle in 1704 rather than Admiral Rooke seizing Gibraltar we would understand the situation in much the same way.
Then there are the interests of the Gibraltarians. Fernando Moran, who was Foreign Minister of Spain in the mid-1980s, made a point in a recent article in the newspaper, El Pais, that Spanish politicians often acted as though those interests did not exist, but of course they do. Gibraltarians want to remain British and of course they want to retain the property they have now. They want to retain their strong economic position, including their place as an offshore financial centre.
Many Gibraltarians want to travel in Spain, do business and have holidays more easily than is now possible. Gibraltarians want more telephone lines from Spain but one day they could want protection even from the Spanish navy; for example, against illegal immigration from Morocco. Who knows what the future of North Africa is? The situation could constitute a serious concern for any Spanish government.
Returning to Gibraltarians, at some time in the future one of the cities near Gibraltar such as San Roque or even Algeciras might develop a university to which Gibraltarians might want to go. I hope that that might be done. Above all, Gibraltarians must require and desire certainty about the future.
I make no apology for believing that the best solution is one that has already been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe; for a so-called Andorra solution. That would mean that Gibraltar would have an autonomous government, much as it does today but perhaps slightly differently formed. The King of Spain and the Queen of England would be the joint sovereigns. As in the similarly successful bicephalous state of Andorra, the President of Francehe used to be the King of Franceand the Bishop of Seo and Urgel are the sovereign powers.
Andorra has been a success since 1278 and I believe that that solution should be seriously considered. Of course it is eccentric and might seem odd to the tidy-minded constitutionalists but nevertheless often the eccentric is the desirable answer. I do not dare to suggest that a bishop should be involved, but I believe that we should recognise that the realities of geography and modern strategy, as well as tradition, suggest that the two-flag solution might be one to which we should give serious attention.
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, in rising to speak in the debate I declare an interest in the matter. I am a member of the Gibraltarian group. In examining the issue, much has been said about Spain. Spain could help itself. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, appears to forget that the difficulties which exist are being caused by Spain. As was said by my noble friends, if Spain wants to woo the people of Gibraltar it is going about it in a very strange way.
In every hour of every day of every year there are traffic difficulties at the border crossing. One is held up for at least one and a half hours every day. There is no air or sea travel to Spain. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, referred to the defence of certain towns in Spain. I realise that no UK military flight can pass over Spain, despite the fact that we are both in NATO.
I believe that that is a ridiculous situation. Spain will not sign the XOpen Skies" agreement because it objects to the involvement of Gibraltar. All that is caused by Spain, not Britain or Gibraltar. Furthermore, Spain has been forced into making telephone concessions because Gibraltar has a right to them. It was decided by the international court.
And why does Spain object to Gibraltarians participating in European elections? It may want to win over the Gibraltarians but it is indulging in silly behaviour such as preventing Gibraltar from participating in international sporting events and sending top judges. Such behaviour is unnecessary, unacceptable and unjustified. If Spain wants to woo over Gibraltar, it is going about it in a most strange way.
However, Spain is the country which is benefiting from all those restrictions. I believe that the talks should go ahead and I hope that agreement can be reached. However, the people of Gibraltar are on edge because they believe that they are in danger of being sold out and will be unable to have a say in their future destiny.
Gibraltar has a viable economy. Irritating as the restrictions are, even if no concessions are made Gibraltar will still thrive. I hope that if the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, has some influence with his Spanish friends and that he will bring those matters to their attention and ask them, XWhy are you doing it?".
Let us look at what Gibraltar has achieved recently. Only a few years ago, some 70 per cent of the Gibraltarian economy depended on the dockyard. The dockyard is now a thriving tourist centre and the Rock has become a major financial centre. The Gibraltarian people have proved themselves extremely resourceful and they should be praised for what they have achieved.
The problems over Gibraltar have more to do with relations between Britain and Spain rather than with the future of the Rock itself. As I have said, Gibraltar can continue to be viable and to prosper even if no change takes place and the status quo remains. Again, much has been made of the proposal that the Chief Minister should attend the negotiations. Surely,
however, ultimately the agreement should not be made between Britain and Spain, but rather between the three parties. On that basis, the Chief Minister should take part.I should like to put one or two questions to my noble friend on the Front Bench. I know that she always gives excellent replies to our queries, but I appreciate that she may be able to respond directly to some questions, but that to others she may not be able to do so. When my honourable friend the Minister for Europe or my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary refer to the position of Gibraltar, they have made it clear that the Gibraltarians will be consulted if their sovereignty is at stake. But Gibraltar cannot be given away; that right is written large.
My noble friend Lord Brett has already put the question, but I too should like to know the meaning of a new term that has cropped up recently. It was used by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary when answering Questions in another place. Suddenly he started to refer to Xlegal sovereignty". We want to know what that term means because it is the kind of point that upsets the people of Gibraltar. Does it mean that an agreement will be sought that may fall short of sovereignty, and that the people of Gibraltar will not be consulted? That is the underlying fear of many Gibraltarians. I would be pleased if, when my noble friend comes to respond to the debate, she would answer the question. The answer will reassure the people of Gibraltar.
Spain always refers to the problem of smuggling. Anyone looking at the situation could not fail to ask why anyone would want to smuggle goods into Gibraltar and then have to cross the frontier. Indeed, my honourable friend the Minister for Europe, when responding to a question put to him at the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Committee on 28th November last, had to admit that there was no evidence of smuggling. As those allegations are not backed by any evidence, I refer to what was said in response to the Select Committee's report of July 2001. We said that if Spain was making false allegations we would raise the matter and that a press statement would be issued. Does the Minister admit that the Spanish Government will provide no evidence? When did we raise the matter? If we did so, where was that done? Was a press statement issued as a result?
A further issue is that Gibraltar would like to be self-determining. Again, Gibraltarians are quite happy to say that they do not think that that would depend on the Treaty of Utrecht and that they are prepared to go to the International Court of Justice. Gibraltar has more to lose than either Spain or Britain. Why do we not investigate whether the Gibraltarians could have self determination? I also join other noble Lords in asking whether we could have details of how Gibraltarians will be enfranchised in time for the European elections in 2004? How will that be brought about? The people of Gibraltar would welcome news about what work has already been done on that matter.
Finally, in the response to the Select Committee's report in July 2001, the Government said that they were continually monitoring border delays and that they would take every opportunity to raise the matter with the Spanish Government. I know that my noble friend will not be able to give a response tonight, but will she write to me and place a copy of that letter in the Library? Since 1997 when have the Government raised the question of delays at the border, with whom has the question been raised and how often has it been raised? If we could have the answers to some of those questions, some of the fears of the people of Gibraltar could be put aside. They fear that an agreement will be reached which will fall short of interference with sovereignty, but one which would have a marked effect on the development of the Rock. Having said that, I wish the talks well.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for the opportunity to debate so important a subject as the fate of the people of Gibraltar. We all know that in 1969 the British government of the day, a Labour government, said in the preamble to Gibraltar's new constitution that,
When Spain, in retaliation, introduced a number of measures of harassment, including closing the border and ordering Spanish workers to leave the Rock, the government of the day responded with admirable firmness. The then Foreign Secretary stated that,
Autre temps, autre moeurs. Today, Spain is no longer a fascist dictatorship. Spain will have the next presidency of the European Union. Without important concessions to Spain, the EU's ambitious plans to establish control of the single European sky and, in effect, to supersede Euro-control are being obstructed. Her Majesty's Government want to be loved by Spain, which is often a useful ally, and they
do not want to be responsible for holding up the single European sky project, some of which, although by no means all, could have useful effects.There has been another change. In the changed world of defence, the Rock is no longer an essential, although remaining, I would have said, a valuable, part of our defence strategy. The Navy no longer needs the dockyards. Not least the European Union is gunning for offshore financial centres. These include the Channel Islands and Gibraltar, the latter having resourcefully become such a centre in response to the need to change its entire economy and find a new way to survive economically.
Her Majesty's Government therefore have several reasons, in the EU context, to wish to please Spain at any cost. There is just one awkward and inescapable fact in the way. We told the Gibraltarians, in their new constitution in 1969, that we would never hand over the people of Gibraltar to another state against their freely expressed and democratic wishes. Indeed, the UN Charter forbids us to do so. It lays on us a solemn and binding obligation, in the British Government's own words, to safeguard the interests of the inhabitants of the non self-governing territories for which they are responsible.
I have little doubt that the Minister will set out the wonderful advantages that would accrue to Gibraltar if it came under the rule of Spain, and she will say regretfully what a difficult life the people are going to have if it does not. It is doubly unfortunate that while Spain's colony, Ceuta, and the French dependencies all have a vote and thus a voice in the EU, we have not so far secured that for Gibraltar even though, because of her British association, Gibraltar actually entered the EU when we did, some years before Spain.
The Secretary of State recently, in the context of Gibraltar, was reported as saying that we need to rethink our attitudes to concepts like independence and sovereignty. He said that by sharing sovereignty, the people may end up with more, not less, independence of action; more, not less, internal self-government; and more, not less, control over their lives. He added that we cannot afford to ignore the lesson that nations are stronger when working together than they could be alone.
Two independent entities working together may indeed be more powerful, but I cannot see how Gibraltarians could possibly feel more in control of their lives if they have shared sovereignty with another country whose interests are so different from their own. There is no way we can expect them to prefer to yield control over their own lives. Would we do so? Of course notso why should they?
There is no honourable, legal or constitutional wayunless the Minister can tell us otherwisein which we can go back on our agreement and hand Gibraltar over against the wishes of its people. If our intention is to secure our object and that of Spain by virtually blackmailing Gibraltar by withdrawing the support it was honourably given in 1969, it will still not be possible to hand over Gibraltarand, sadly, this Government could never again have the effrontery to claim that they operate an ethical foreign policy.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, this is a sensitive issue but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, said, it is not party political. It is rather like the Cyprus issuewhich I am sure we will also be debating in the next yearone which has all kinds of echoes in the domestic politics of this country.
The situation has changed a great deal since 1969, and, indeed, since 1985. Spain is thoroughly democratic and a member of the European Union; British/Spanish links are far closer than they were; there is, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, remarked, a very large British population in southern Spain. I am not sure that I am entirely happy with that. The last time I drove east from Gibraltar towards Malaga, the area seemed to be becoming very much like the strip between Bournemouth and Poolefilled with golf courses for retired, well-to-do British businessman. There is a large Spanish population in the United Kingdom and, with the recruitment of Spanish nurses, that population is about to increase.
Gibraltar is benefiting much less from British defence spending than it was, and so it is more dependent on tourism and on having become an offshore financial centre. The Gibraltar economy is fragile. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, who said that Gibraltar could be prosperous even if there were no change in the status quo. If Gibraltar's prosperity is to depend more on being a tax haven, that is real vulnerability, and one has to be prepared for that.
I am puzzled by the remarks about recent delays on the frontier. It took me about 35 seconds the last time I crossed it.
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