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Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I start by acknowledging that it is a good thing that the House has left in the Bill religiously aggravated offences, an extended definition of racial hatred and the extension of the penalty. I was the one who referred emotively on Report to the example of the young woman. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, should not be accused of that. Unless your Lordships accepted, as they did, after I had made that point that there can be religiously aggravated offences, the additional feature of a religious element in that case could not have been taken into account in there being a new offence.
However, despite that, I remain of the view that there will be a gap in our protection for vulnerable parts of our community if we do not include incitement to religious hatred. I know the mood of the House. I shall deal briefly with the main points raised in the shortest of summaries. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, says that the guidance which I have provided is a strange precedent. I have tried to assist noble Lords and another place by indicating certain matters in relation to the offence. It is not a case of the law being set by the Attorney-General. I have made that extremely clear, as does the guidance.
Publishing guidance as to the basis upon which prosecutors will act is not unprecedented. What may be unusual is to include the reference in the Bill. However, again, I am unrepentant about that. Secondly, what is the hurry? The hurry is clear. There is a connection with September 11th. Anyone who has read the appendix to the report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs from another place will see a number of incidents—I referred to some on Report—which show that since September 11th attacks on particular parts of the community have increased. My noble friend the Minister indicates that the choice is now or certainly not soon in order to deal with this.
To argue that there are defects in the Bill without proposing changes undermines the argument that the Bill is wrong as it stands. There is a gap. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, was good enough to acknowledge that the sort of thing with which we cannot deal under existing public order offences which are victim orientated is offensive literature. I have seen some of that—noble Lords may have seen it—directed against particular groups, some on websites. If it is directed against Jews or Sikhs it is criminal. If it is directed against Muslims we cannot prosecute it as incitement to racial hatred.
Lord McNally: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for giving way. The Minister indicated that this is Hobson's choice. It is a government
decision not to bring forward legislation. However, as we have proved with the tobacco advertising Bill, there are other ways to bring legislation to this House. In answer to the right reverend Prelate we would bring forward legislation on these matters and defy the Government to frustrate it.
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he says. As noble Lords have rightly said, we have spent time on this provision. From our point of view we have spent time trying to explain why the offence as it stands, using exactly the same formula as for incitement to racial hatred, would not give rise to the problems to which some noble Lords have referred. I am of the view that those who have been concerned about the expression of one's own religious belief and criticism of someone else's religious belief should be—and I hope will be—reassured by what is said in this House and in the guidance. That was the reason.
At the end of the day noble Lords have a choice. I can do nothing better than remind noble Lords of what was said by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark. He said that this is an opportunity to provide basic protection for all. The figures may well demonstrate that it will not be an offence which will be prosecuted every day or every week up and down the country. Noble Lords may think that that is a reassurance. It is an opportunity to give a clear message; to give a protection now; and to put a stop to the kind of pernicious message which can incite and result in attacks on the train or in any part of the community. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will not support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on the amendment and, in particular, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark. I want him to understand that I am most assuredly anxious not to cause him any offence at all. I simply say that when he says, XOh, incitement to religious hatred is offensive, therefore criminalise it", that lacks logic. It lacks common sense. I wanted to say that without causing any offence. I am grateful to the other right reverend Prelate for his views, which set the scales more evenly balanced on the spiritual Benches.
On Report I called the Attorney-General's guidelines amendment a fudge. Having seen it, it is a meretricious fudge. It is an absolute nonsense. It is not of the slightest use to anyone. It states what one can pick up from any down town solicitor if one asked him where he would stand on the general principles of a prosecution. In the guidance, what is the nature of the conduct? Paragraph 5.3 states:
- XA person does not commit an offence of incitement to religious hatred unless:
- (1) He uses threatening or abusive or insulting words or behaviour",
6.14 p.m.
The Deputy Speaker (Viscount Allenby of Megiddo): My Lords, the original Question was that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 23 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 23A to the words so restored to the Bill. Since when an amendment has been moved to leave out the words after XHouse" and to insert Xdo insist on its Amendment No. 23" to which the Commons have disagreed. The Question is that this amendment be agreed to.
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 234; Not-Contents, 121.
Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chan, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Coe, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haslam, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morgan, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Wakefield, Bp.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Attenborough, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Nicol, B.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Southwark, Bp.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
6.27 p.m.
Lord Carter: My Lords, before moving to the next amendment, I point out that we still have four important groups of amendments to the Bill to discuss. They all concern subjects that have been discussed in great detail during the eight days allocated to the Bill. We also have the Third Reading of the Office of Communications Bill, two important health orders and an Unstarred Question. We must also deal with the Commons Message. I need say no more—I hope that your Lordships have got the message.
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