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Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, has said. While we welcome the agreement of the Home Secretary to subject the code of practice on data retention to affirmative resolution, we do not believe that that concession is enough. We believe that Lords Amendments Nos. 40 and 44 properly limit the scope of the proposed data retention provisions without in any way undermining the capacity of law enforcement authorities and intelligence agencies to counter the threat from global terrorism.

As my noble friend Lord Northesk said on Report, there is a very real risk that the vast accumulation of data that the Bill currently envisages could prove counter-productive and, thereby, hinder the work of the intelligence services in their challenging task of fighting terrorism. As the Minister has always insisted, investigations under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and on advice from the Information Commissioner, have proceeded, and are proceeding satisfactorily. With excellent co-operation from communication service providers, why do the Government require this extension of power?

Yesterday in another place the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State argued that CSPs are unhappy with your Lordships' amendment to Part 11. He said:

XThe providers say the amendment is not workable".—[Official Report, Commons, 12/12/01; col. 907.]

Of course, we do not know which providers have made representations to the Home Office. But I am bound to say that that does not tie in with our advice from the ISPA (Internet Service Providers Association). That association favours the amendment because, given the general lack of legal clarity within Clause 102, it would much prefer checks for proportionality and reasonableness to be made within the narrower, although still wide, framework proposed. In that case, we shall insist that this House supports Amendments Nos. 40 and 44.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall be brief. I shall reply to the central points that have been raised. First, we have made it absolutely clear that there will not be a data warehouse. Secondly, this is not a matter of mass surveillance, even though the retention by data providers of people's information is necessary. The Data Protection Act will cover that. That data cannot and will not be touched by the law enforcement authorities unless the regulation of investigatory powers tests are met: they are necessity and proportionality. As I said before, quite extravagant language is being used which is designed to frighten people into believing that they will be subjected to mass surveillance. They will not be.

I shall set out some of the points. The code of practice will set out the time limits. In this House we have already agreed that it will not be seven years. We were specifically asked about an article in the Observer

13 Dec 2001 : Column 1479

and we said that it would not be seven years. I cannot say what it will be, but the implication is that it will be less than seven years because we need to achieve agreement on the code of practice.

Britain is not the only country to have data retention legislation. Belgium and France have such legislation. Contrary to what has been asserted by the noble Lords opposite, this is not the only country to introduce emergency anti-terrorism laws. France and the United States have done so. It is not true to say that we are isolated in that respect.

This is not an extension of police powers, but service providers will retain information that they already collect. This is not new, but we want them to retain that information a little longer so that if there are grounds for checking up on people, the information is there to be used.

The practice of retaining information has been carried out on an informal and voluntary basis since 11th September. It has proved extremely useful and we have had excellent co-operation from the data providers. I have no criticism of the Internet and telephone networks service providers. However, it is important to put such matters on a statutory basis with all the protections that this Bill provides, contrary to the assertions made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I stand corrected if France has introduced legislation. I specifically said XEurope". If that is right, I believe it is right to say that France is the only other country that is doing anything.

Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that the Federal Republic of Germany has also recently introduced an anti-terrorism Act?

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, if the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, says so I certainly shall accept that. I would be interested to know exactly what that country has introduced.

The protections to which the Minister referred are in place, but it is not true to say that there is no extension of powers in this Bill. The retention powers are new and potentially they are for the whole industry and for the industry's entire capture of traffic data. That is why, through this amendment, we seek a limit to those powers.

7.16 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 40B), shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 196; Not-Contents, 145.

Division No. 4

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Coe, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Attenborough, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Emerton, B.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Nicol, B.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wakefield, Bp.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

13 Dec 2001 : Column 1482

Original Motion, as amended, agreed to.

7.26 p.m.

LORDS AMENDMENT
44Clause 103, page 62, line 39, at end insert Xfor purposes prescribed in section 102(5)"
The Commons disagreed to this amendment for the following reason:
44ABecause it is not appropriate to limit the power conferred by this clause in the manner proposed by the amendment.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 44 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason numbered 44A.

Moved, That the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 44 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason numbered 44A.—(Lord Rooker.)

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