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The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Blackstone): My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said she wanted to concentrate our minds in relation to producing the communications Bill. I can say that no minds can be more concentrated than they are on making sure that this Bill is produced and ready for the pre-legislative scrutiny that we have guaranteed. That in itself requires a great deal of concentration of mind, so I hope I can give her that initial assurance. Everyone who is involved will be working extremely hard to get the Bill ready so that there can be the proper scrutiny of what the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, described as a very complex Bill.
Any of these amendments could cause unfortunate delay in the preparation to create Ofcom and I see no advantage in delay of that kind. I hope that the firm commitment that we have given on pre-legislative scrutiny will assure all noble Lords who have taken part in the passage of this Bill that there will be the fullest possible opportunity to debate the substance of
the new regime. There is therefore no need to delay the practical steps that need to be taken in relation to appointments.I hope that the noble Baroness does not want to postpone appointments until the introduction of the Bill. That may be a year away. The drafting of her amendment is not entirely clear. But even if she would be content to see appointments made when the draft communications Bill is published, I see no benefit in linking the timing of these events. As I said, we want to publish the Bill as soon as we possibly can, and we also want to appoint the chairman without delay so that the complete Ofcom board can take charge of the practical steps as soon as possible after next summer.
Perhaps I may respond to a couple of points which the noble Baroness made. Ofcom will not be able to regulate until the main Bill receives Royal Assent. The White Paper sets out what OFCOM will do. We are clear about the kind of qualities required for the chairman and the other board members. In that sense delaying the appointments is also unnecessary. The Bill makes clear that OFCOM cannot interfere with existing regulators. In my view the way to reassure staff is to make early progress in creating OFCOM. That is the best possible reassurance they can be given. Let us get on with the appointments as soon as practicable.
I respond to a further point which the noble Baroness made. I believe she suggested that commercial decisions might be put on hold. There is no sensible reason why the existing regulators should cease to operate as normal. They are well aware that the intention is that transfer schemes, drafts of which are provided for in Clause 4(2) of the Bill, will ensure that all the current commercial relationships will continue unaffected after the transfer to Ofcom.
I turn now to the amendment of my noble friend Lord Gordon of Strathblane. That would also delay appointments until the introduction of the communications Bill. Like the BBC and cross-media ownership, it will be fully debated during the pre-legislative scrutiny. There again, I see absolutely no reason to delay the appointment of the chair. The full board will appear several months later, after the chair is appointed.
Lord Gordon of Strathblane: My Lords, I ask the Minister to give way briefly. Would she not agree that the appointment of the chairman and chief executive would be better made after the debate rather than before?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, no. The whole purpose of appointing a chairman and subsequently other members of the board, is for them to start working with the existing regulators. I believe that that will provide reassurance to staff, as I have said. The dates on which the Government plan to make the appointments have now been agreed by the existing regulators. Therefore, we should get on with it.
I ask my noble friend and the noble Baroness, as I did at Committee stage, what they consider to be the benefit of delay. Some noble Lords have expressed
concern that the details of the new regime have not yet been spelt out. But anyone who has read the White Paper has a pretty clear picture of the functions that the Government intend for OFCOM. There is now a consultation document on media ownership. Perhaps I may yet again reinforce that there will be a full opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill by a joint committee of both Houses.In the light of those reassurances and the commitment I have made to get on with the matter, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken supporting Amendments Nos. 1 and 2. I separate that from what I say about Amendment No. 4. I believe that the Minister has probably misunderstood. I suggest that we all take some blame for that but certainly not the Minister, because we want to make sure that when the chairman and the chief executive of Ofcom are appointed those making the appointments know exactly what the chairman and the chief executive are to do. We have not seen the Bill. In an organisation which I chair I have recently been through a lengthy process to choose a chief executive. There is no way in which I would have become deeply involved in choosing somebody unless the person chosen had seen the dots and crosses made so that they knew exactly what they were taking on and the skills required.
However, as the noble Lord, Lord Strathblane, said, there is no question of dividing on the issue. I believe he said something to the effect of XBe it on your head if something goes wrong". I emphasise that again. It is right to have it on the record that we believe it would be much more appropriate if those kinds of appointments were made at least after the draft Bill had been published. I say no more than that. The Minister said quite rightly that the Government's mind is really concentrated on this Bill. Presumably, therefore, the draft Bill will arrive when we believe it is due. It should not be too long after that that one can go ahead and appoint the chief executive and the chairman.
The Minister has made her points and we have made ours. For the record we hope that the noble Baroness is correct. If she is not, then it will not be good for the communications industry about which we are all concerned.
As regards Amendment No. 4, the noble Lord, Lord Strathblane, said that he would not go as far as I would. Indeed, I believe the noble Viscount suggested that he was more in tune. I would like to believe that he is because of what the noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, said. I have looked again at my wording. I read it very carefully. I said,
- XIn other words, all we are asking is that before what the Government describes as this enabling Bill comes into effect, Parliament has the opportunity to see exactly what is being enabled".
Viscount Falkland: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, for the record I said that I sympathised with what both she and the noble Lord said. But since the noble Baroness has spoken, on these Benches I am more in tune with her than I am with what the Government have said.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 3:
- After Clause 2, insert the following new clause—
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment picks up on points that the Minister has already made as regards the pre-legislative scrutiny. At Report stage the Government gave assurances about the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill which were most welcome. But just four days later the Government published their consultation document on new proposals on media ownership. These are policy issues which formed part of the White Paper, but which have not formed part of our debates on this Bill.
I have therefore tabled this particular amendment at this late stage simply because, first, this is the first time one could do so as the consultation paper has only just appeared; and, secondly, in order to follow the proper guidance under Third Reading rules and Standing Orders: that is, to give the Government the opportunity to clarify certain uncertainties which follow on from the assurances that they gave the House at Report stage on the matter of pre-legislative scrutiny.
The press release issued by the DCMS issued on 26th November states,
It is proper at this stage before we get to pre-legislative scrutiny—on which the Government have given a commitment—to ask what is meant by Xinform". Will the new clauses be added to the draft Bill for consideration by the joint committee, or will there be a separate Bill? Tonight the Minister reassured us. I believe that she said that issues of media ownership would be fully debated in pre-legislative scrutiny. One assumes that they can be fully debated only if they form part of the draft Bill. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me on that matter.
The practical effect of my amendment would be to require the Secretary of State to publish a report of the consultation exercise in sufficient time and in a format which would enable the joint committee to take those responses properly into consideration during its scrutiny of the draft Bill. I hope that the Government will accept that that is a responsible way forward. I make it clear at this point—as I hope that I have already—that I shall not press the amendment to a Division. It is merely a probing amendment to enable the Government to put on the record their commitment with regard to the work carried out by the joint committee. I beg to move.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, it is nice to consider this matter without the threat of a timetable in front of us. It is also nice to be able to say that, largely, we can meet the wishes of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, with regard to the amendment.
Subsections (1) and (2) of the proposed new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish the communications Bill in draft for consultation and consideration by a joint committee of both Houses of Parliament. Subsection (3) would require the Secretary of State to publish the outcome of the current consultation exercise which could be considered by the joint committee.
We announced in the Queen's Speech that the draft Bill would be published this Session. We shall consult widely on it, just as we have consulted widely on the White Paper. On Report we gave a clear commitment that we would invite Parliament to establish a joint committee for pre-legislative scrutiny. The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, has just confirmed that. I confirm it Xdoubly", if that is of any assistance. Therefore, there is no need for the first two subsections of the amendment.
As regards subsection (3), the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, rightly reminded the House that the consultation exercise which is now in process is due to
As regards what is meant by Xinform", the answer is twofold. First, as I said, we shall publish a summary of as many responses as we are able to publish. Secondly, that will inform the draft Bill and the explanatory notes to the draft Bill. I believe that that is the right way to do it rather than put another piece of paper in the public domain. I hope that with those remarks the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, will feel that all of the elements in her amendment are met. The consultation document is a combination of firm proposals and proposals which are less firm. We must include in the draft Bill actual media ownership proposals. There will not be two Bills. The conclusions we reach and the outcome of the consultation will be reflected in the wording of the draft Bill.
XCONSIDERATION OF PROPOSALS
(1) The Secretary of State shall ensure that any bill containing provisions relating to the implementation of any relevant proposals within the meaning of section 2(3) is—
(a) published in draft; and
(b) subject to consultation.
(2) The period for consultation shall be such as to allow scrutiny of any draft bill by a joint committee of both Houses of Parliament.
(3) The Secretary of State shall publish a report on the outcome of a consultation exercise concerning the rules governing media ownership in such a way as to permit its consideration by any joint committee referred to in subsection (2)."
XThe consultation will last two months—the deadline for responses is 25 January—and will inform the draft Bill on Communications".
My question tonight is this: what does the Government mean by Xinform"? Looking through the consultation document it appears that the Government are using two different approaches to different policy issues. On one occasion the
consultation paper states that Xviews are invited", which looks a very green approach indeed. On another the paper states directly that,
XWe will introduce a clause"
to the Communications Bill. In other words, it is done and dusted. For example, at paragraph 6.2.10 it states,
XWe will retain the nominated news provider system for ITV but will introduce a clause to allow the Government on advice from OFCOM to revoke it".
8 p.m.
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