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Lord Lyell: My Lords, has the noble Lord, who kindly referred to me, ever thought that the reputation of the marvellous young English footballer whom I admire greatly, and who has great success because he works so hard, is due not to his manager—a fellow Scot—or his club but his wife?
Lord McNally: My Lords, any reputation that I have is certainly due to my wife, so I agree with the noble Lord.
12.55 p.m.
Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, the type of hooliganism with which the Bill is concerned has acquired, as noble Lords know, the unflattering title of, "the English disease". It is allegedly said that our neighbours in the British Isles are with some justification not associated with that term.
To convey what we have achieved so far, I recall that at the time of the Falklands War, when a military campaign was being fought 8,000 miles from home and Royal Marines were "yomping" towards Stanley, soccer hooligans were landing at Zeebrugge virtually naked and decorated in Union Jack woad. At the time, a Belgian friend of mine said that he had never understood the English and that he now understood them even less.
As the Minister said, the climax to such behaviour came, as noble Lords are well aware, in the Euro 2000 matches, when there were appalling scenes at Brussels and Charleroi. The Minister drew attention to the ridiculous situation that whereas only one individual was charged, the police found that 40 per cent of those who were arrested had records for criminal behaviour. UEFA threatened England with expulsion from Euro 2000 and the British government's actions—or lack of them—were compared unfavourably with those that were taken in particular by the German police and the German football federation.
It was as a result of the widespread criticism both at home and abroad that the Football (Disorder) Act 2000 came about. We have heard that it contains a number of stringent measures: a banning order to apply both domestically and internationally; the powers to confiscate passports; and wide powers to
issue banning orders including, in certain circumstances, when no offence had been committed. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, spoke with his usual eloquence on that point.I give the Government credit for the Bill and pay tribute in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, who was closely involved in its preparation. I also take this opportunity to thank him for the help he has given me in connection with this Second Reading debate.
The Bill was widely welcomed by, among others, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Football Association and the National Criminal Intelligence Service. We have also heard from the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner, and Lord Pendry, about the other regulatory bodies that were involved. In my party's view, the legislation has, on the whole, worked well. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, drew attention to the fact that it was a panic measure. There was a certain urgency at the time, and there was a danger of it falling under the Dangerous Dogs Act syndrome. The results have been justified.
Two particularly informative reports were issued under the chairmanship of, I believe, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. The first report was on the Act's operation during its first 12 months and the second contained an update following Munich—the first real test came with Munich. The police operation to restrain trouble was, on the whole, a success and, as noble Lords know, 79 suspected hooligans were processed at British ports and airports under the new legislation, in the run-up to the game. Fifty-eight of those were prevented from travelling to Germany, 33 were given bans, nine have bans pending, 16 had their hearings adjourned and 21 cases were unsuccessful, meaning that the fans were free to go to the match. I think that it is fair to say that the clear England victory probably took some menace out of the situation but let us give the authorities—and the legislation itself—the benefit of the doubt and adjudge it a success.
So much for the background. I turn to the Bill. Police powers were renewed for a further 12-month period in August 2001, and this Bill is drafted to extend the life of the measures beyond August 2002. In another place my party welcomed the broad aims of the Bill. However, my honourable friend Mr Dominic Grieve with the support of the Liberal Democrats drew the House's attention to the draconian powers posed by Section 14 and in particular Section 21. He pointed out that people were liable to be put through a process previously unknown in English law. I thank the noble Lord, Lord, Lord Phillips, for giving us the background to this kind of hybrid legislation.
In his amendment, my honourable friend suggested a sunset clause limiting the provisions of the Bill to five years. I also draw your Lordships' attention to another point made in that debate by Mr Simon Hughes to the effect that the permanent enshrinement in law of Sections 14 and 21 would put up a sign that the English disease was indeed incurable and would give to the world a pessimistic, defeatist and permanent signal
which we might well come to regret. However, the amendment was declined and defeated. I do not need to dwell further on that point since I am most pleased, as I am sure many noble Lords are, that the Government have now indicated that they will bring forward an amendment for a sunset clause of five years. The advantage is that it will not only extend the operation of the Act beyond the 2006 World Cup but that, significantly, any parliamentary consideration of either a further extension or of new legislation will also be postponed beyond it; and we will not have at that event the distraction of considering legislation while the World Cup is in progress. I note that the European championships in 2008 will probably coincide; but we cannot have everything.Noble Lords will take some reassurance from the fact that, a challenge having been brought in the High Court that arrests under the 2000 Act were an infringement under the ECHR, those arguments failed on all counts.
I turn to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and picked up by several noble Lords. I refer to the regrettable case of the two Leeds United footballers. The point about the case—it should concern your Lordships in the context of this Bill—was not that the injuries to a young Asian were caused by footballers but by very highly paid footballers. Let us imagine the effect on potential football hooligans such as we are dealing with in this Bill—it is not the hard core but those on the fringes, those who see these Premier League players as role models and heroes—who may be excused for thinking, "Well, if they can do that sort of thing, why can't I?"
In its 12-month report, the NCIS states that people who travel to away matches want to be associated with that team and when they cause trouble they do so in some crazy belief that they are somehow fighting for their team. It states that that kind of loyalty is often one of the unedifying aspects of tribalism, and football organisations and clubs must accept their share of responsibility.
The Leeds United Football Club has taken action against the two individuals concerned. I take note of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, of the implications if those players were ever to come near the selection process for the England team. The action of Leeds United Football Club is to be commended. However, it also highlights the need for clubs not only to work closely with the police in addressing hooliganism; they must keep control over the discipline of their own players both on and off the field. I hope that, in association with his colleague the Minister for Sport, the Minister will be mindful of that point in particular as regards racism.
I have two other questions for the Minister. First, at the time of the original Bill it was suggested that it might be easy to go through Scotland in order to make trouble abroad. Will the Minister assure us that that has not been an inhibition in the operation of the Bill? Secondly, as the report from the National Criminal Intelligence Service states, hooliganism is being used as a cover for serious crime such as drugs dealing and
counterfeiting. It is highly organised, often by men respectfully dressed in suits, collars and ties. Those individuals are expert in what one might call "working" the hooligan element. They make sophisticated use of mobile phones. In the recent debate in this House on the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill, we were informed that it is now possible to locate a caller on a mobile phone. Can I have the Minister's assurance that the authorities are now abreast of those sophisticated techniques and that they can be dealt with under the provisions of the Bill?We welcome the Bill and are grateful for the Government's move towards a sunset clause. We look forward to studying the amendments in Committee.
1.6 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, in closing it is customary to say that it has been an interesting and wide-ranging debate. This has been a wide-ranging debate. The Bill is a modest measure—a simple repeal. I have enjoyed all the contributions made in your Lordships' House today. It is almost invidious to pick out any individual because all speakers made telling and important points.
Perhaps I may continue the round of tributes by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for his contribution, not only today but over a long period, towards improving many aspects of the sport. He has ensured that the quality of stadium facilities and the treatment of and respect for fans have been foremost in the minds of those who have some responsibility for the governance of the sport.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for his kind words, his never-ending contribution to football and his continued support. We share a great affection for Brighton and Hove Albion. My affection may be slightly stronger than his. While the club is not a paragon of virtue, it is taking great steps to tackle some of the issues which have been referred to. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, made an important contribution, putting the positive side and referring to what many football clubs are doing. He placed that action alongside the behaviour of the Leeds United footballers and the difficulties in tackling racism that will face that club, those footballers and the football authorities. That issue has not gone away. We should not assume that legislation—the point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—is the be-all and end-all. It does not provide necessary solutions but it provides frameworks and sets standards. That is what we have been seeking to do over many years with legislation regulating behaviour in and around grounds.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for his witty contribution which was, as ever, to the point. I shall try to respond to some of the important questions he raised. I thank in particular the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. His single-minded concentration on the fall-out from the Leeds United footballers' cases is right. We need to examine those issues long and hard. He may be right that there needs to be some further
inquiry on how that fall-out will be managed, the implications for the game and for clubs which know that they have to tackle insidious racism. The noble Lord made an important point about looking at how the judicial process works. I undertake to ensure that those comments are reflected where they need to be reflected with regard to that case and its conduct.As regards the future, that is for the football authorities and the clubs. It is beyond the remit of this modest piece of legislation. I also want to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, for his support. I am pleased, too, that our offer at this early stage of a five-year sunset clause on the Bill has been broadly welcomed.
This has been a very illuminating debate. As I said earlier, while law will not solve all problems, I believe that this piece of legislation has started to crack a very tough nut. The Football (Disorder) Act 2000 originally included, as does this Bill, radical measures. During the passage of the 2000 Bill, I said that those radical measures would not be sufficient but would need to be coupled with a strategy which considered the breadth of the game and the way in which racism, violence and disorder swirled round the game and impacted upon it.
I take some pride in the working party report produced under my guidance. I pay tribute to our officials who have been diligent in taking forward its many recommendations. I believe that over a longer period those recommendations will have an impact in changing the atmosphere that surrounds our national game.
All the available evidence strongly suggests that Sections 14B, 21A and 21B have had the impact that we expected. I believe that they have also gone a long way to repair the damage that hooligans have done to our national reputation. UEFA, in particular, is pleased. It is notable, too, that other countries across Europe have looked with some degree of envy at our measures and the way in which they impact upon the behaviour of supporters at major games.
We believe that there is a compelling case, based on evidence, for retaining the sections to which I have referred. We consider it to be right that they should continue to be subject to review and report. Since the measures were introduced there has been a dramatic reduction in significant disorder. It is also the case that the measures have been warmly welcomed by police forces across Europe as much as by governments.
I do not believe for a moment that football violence has disappeared or that it will disappear for ever. We must always be vigilant. But I take great heart from the progress that has been made. This House, in particular, has a reputation for careful scrutiny and for not giving away liberties lightly or easily, and rightly so. It also has among its Members strong civil libertarians, such as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, to argue for those liberties. I believe that we in this House have the ability to improve the quality of legislation. Certainly, we focused the Government's mind when we considered this legislation in the year 2000.
A number of questions were asked and I shall respond to one or two of them. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked whether the international football banning orders related only to national team games. The new combined order covers club games in Europe as well. I believe that the noble Lord asked how a banning order could be lifted. The Act allows for applications to revoke banning orders at any time after two-thirds of the period has passed. The subject of a banning order can apply at short notice for an exemption from any requirement to report to the football banning order authority or the police.
The noble Lord raised questions and concerns about the statistics. I believe, and have argued, that the statistics bear out our faith in the legislation. I also believe that the test of Munich was matched. The facts speak for themselves. Five hundred and thirty-seven known trouble-makers were prevented by the banning order conditions from travelling to Munich compared to 100 who were prevented from travelling to Euro 2000. Four hundred and ninety-two of those were banned following conviction of a football-related offence. The remaining 45 were banned in accordance with the Section 14B civil process. All 45 had convictions for violence or disorder, although not necessarily related directly to football. It is also the case that a further 58 were prevented by the courts from travelling in accordance with the Section 21B process. Again, all 58 had convictions for violence or public order offences.
I argued, and I continue to do so, that genuine fans have nothing to fear from these powers. Perhaps I may pick up a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. In putting across his argument, I believe that he suggested that the courts were rejecting 40 per cent of the applications made. The noble Lord cannot have it both ways. Either the courts are doing their job properly or they are not. We argued initially at the time of the passing of the legislation that there would be ample tests of the powers. The courts are obviously proving to be robust in the way in which they are conducting cases and, quite rightly, they are raising the right type of question when confronted with individual cases.
I have already said that many issues will fall from the case of the Leeds United footballers and all that surrounded it. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for his continued concern on that issue. I believe that I have responded to most of the points. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and, I believe, the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, were concerned about the Scottish angle. We have not yet found that the Scottish problem—the leakage of hooligans through Scotland—has caused any great disruption to the working of the legislation.
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