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Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Norton, sits down, I wonder whether he will answer a question. Why does he say
that the justification for the Bill is that the House of Commons should be socially typical rather than that every individual candidate, as an individual human being, should be treated on his or her merits, irrespective of gender, and that the Bill is designed to achieve that by taking proportionate, positive measures to enable each individual human being to be treated in that way rather than having approved quotas?
Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, I do not argue with that because there is a powerful argument to that effect. My point was that the Bill has been argued in terms of representation. That term has been used throughout; for example, that women are under-represented in the House of Commons. I was merely addressing the issue from that perspective and arguing that if one is taking that line—and I was silent on the merits of the Bill—and if one is arguing from the concept of representation—that is not the only argument one can take and I did not mean to suggest that it was—one must be clear as to the principle on the basis of which one is arguing. I was arguing solely within the confines of that concept.
3.23 p.m.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I regret that no one has asked me what I am going to say but I am going to say it just the same! I welcome and support the legislation. It is only a short Bill but it has the potential, over the years, to have a profound effect on the culture not only of Parliament but possibly also of local councils. In turn, it will have a profound effect on the British way of life. Notwithstanding what the media and commentators might say, I still believe that parliaments, whether on the international, European, nation state or local council level, still have a major impact and influence on the fabric of our society. We only need an event like the tragedy of September 11th to see how much we still rely on collective action; that the individualism sought by society is not supreme; and that we need to work together at different levels.
The legislation before the House will provide a much-needed opportunity for more women to enter politics, to get into Parliament and local councils. They will be more fairly represented than is the case at the moment. Furthermore, women will be able to become leaders and gain more influence, both in our own society and throughout the world. I shall return to that fundamental point in a moment. I believe that that will be for the betterment of us all, men included. I submit that that is the case for change. That is also my response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, as regards the fundamental reason for the legislation.
To pick up on the noble Lord's second point, I believe that the Bill could also pave the way for under-representation in national politics to be tackled on other grounds. In due course, is there any reason why, if ethnic minority groups wanted it, we should not address the possibility of making changes in representation at council and parliamentary level to meet their needs? Is there a case, if they want it, for the
many millions in our society with disabilities who feel that they are not necessarily properly represented in debate at both local and national level, similarly to argue that changes should be made in our approach? I freely admit that those proposals are well down the line and may never happen, but there is the possibility that this small Bill could provide the foundation from which substantial developments could take place.I am pleased that the legislation will be permissive and not prescriptive. We should not force parties to do things that they do not want to do, even if we believe that those are the right things to do.
The use of women-only shortlists by Labour in the period 1993-96 was extremely successful in turning around the way we selected and brought people into Parliament. We had not witnessed a change on that scale before. I was a strong supporter of the shortlists. It also demonstrated the clear divide that exists between some of the political parties—here I refer to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. I do not want to be unduly political about it because I believe that we are seeking consensus here, but the shortlists demonstrated a clear divide between ourselves and the Conservative Party. However, this is a difficult area and changes are needed. If they are not effected, not only will certain groups be perceived as slow to move on, they may even find themselves left behind.
Yesterday I read in this month's Parliamentary Monitor that the Conservatives are starting to face up to the need for change:
- "The Tory Party is considering introducing quotas requiring parliamentary shortlists to be made up equally of men and women in a bid to increase the number of female MPs. The move was backed by the Conservative Women's National Council, which met last month. Gillian Shephard, the former cabinet minister, has been given the task of increasing the number of female MPs".
My own experience of the difficult issue of positive action derives from my background in the trade union movement where, when I first went in, it was very much "the brothers" with relatively little mention of "the sisters". As my noble friend Lady Gibson has demonstrated, life there is changing to some degree but, looking back, even there it has been difficult to make headway without some kind of strong, positive action.
In the Inland Revenue Staff Federation, of which I was general-secretary for a number of years, more than 60 per cent of our members were women and less than 40 per cent were males. Yet, when one looked at what
was happening in the union, it was overwhelmingly the males who held the levers of power at almost every level. It proved very difficult to introduce changes, especially when one looked at the real areas of power at executive council and executive council sub-committee level. It was a real uphill struggle to get a better balance between the genders.I have often thought that if the Tories had adopted a different approach in relation to the Thatcher employment legislation—particularly in respect of elections of executive councils and so on—and had taken into account the need to ensure that there was better representation between the genders on important decision-taking bodies such as executive councils, and if they had framed their legislation accordingly, there may have been some interesting out-turns, from a variety of standpoints, which would have been beneficial not only to them but to the trade union movement and to women in particular.
We have made big progress in many areas within the trade union movement but there remain some areas where there are substantial opportunities—and a need—for change to be effected. My noble friend Lady Dean may say more on this. There is still work to be done by the present Government on the issue of elections and representation of membership within unions. I log the point for them. Perhaps they may come to it in due course.
During my time as general-secretary, it was my experience that when we managed to get change and women were able to gain entry into, particularly, sub-committees that had power, which had been hitherto the exclusive preserve of men, we found that there was a remarkable change in the way in which we worked and developed our policies. I make no bones about it, rather like my noble friend Lady Jay of Paddington, I went through a conversion. As a result of my experience there, I became a convert to, and a strong supporter of, positive action—notwithstanding the difficulties that we may encounter from time to time with a bit of legislation here and there that may be used by others against us. The reality is that it works in practice and produces good results.
There were, of course, accusations that, by using positive action, we were being patronising. I must admit, I took that rather hard. It was difficult when one felt that one was trying to effect change but was being accused of being patronising. Unfortunately, much of that criticism came from women. The accusations from men were on the other side—that is, that we were being discriminatory and grossly unfair on them. The fact that they controlled most of the levers of power seemed to escape them. But those were the allegations.
I was pleased that the Labour Party faced up to similar difficulties when it was reviewing its way forward and considering how it might get more women Labour MPs into Parliament. It was bold enough to override that kind of criticism. I pay tribute to my noble friends Lady Jay, Lady Morgan and others who have been closely associated with keeping the flag flying and getting back, I hope, to the position that we held between 1992 and 1996.
I hope that we will continue to be bold, notwithstanding objections which may be raised on the legal front. What we are about is a kind of social engineering. I know that that is much despised and ridiculed by some people, but I do not think that it is a bad thing in a world that is driven by markets and circumstances in which the winners take all. We could possibly do with a little more social engineering. The Bill will be welcomed particularly by women and, I hope, by most men too. I hope that it will come into force and that we shall see the changes that so many of us want to witness.
3.35 p.m.
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, I, too, welcome the Bill. It is permissive, short, simple and long awaited. I am delighted, and feel privileged, to take part in a debate with noble Lords—indeed, friends—on all sides of the House who have spent a great deal of their lives working in this area and pushing forward the cause of women. My colleagues are not speaking out of ideology but from their own "feet-on-the-ground" experience.
I see the Bill as a start in tackling, not a solution to, the problem. I do not think that any of us are kidding ourselves that when the Bill becomes an Act—as it appears will happen given the degree of consensus—it is to be hoped, unamended, it will all be easy sailing. It will not.
Through all the various changes for women, it has never been easy. When women received the vote in 1928—when many of us were not even thought of—their idea was: "Now we really are going to make a change". That did not happen in many respects. I remember Barbara Castle—one of my heroines—being castigated in another place in 1975 for introducing the Equal Pay Act. It was said that all women in work would lose their jobs and that the legislation would not help women. The same was true of the sex discrimination legislation. I am not making a political point, but when Mrs Thatcher was elected Prime Minister—much as I did not agree for political reasons—I felt that now we might see women in the Cabinet and that they would drive forward policies for women. We were, of course, dreadfully disappointed. Therefore, the Bill is essential. I hope that it will become law.
Reference was made to the judgment that found the Labour Party to be acting illegally in introducing all-women short-lists. The law may have been right and the Labour Party may have been wrong, but the blunt fact is that the present outcome was essential. That is why, down the corridor in another place, 23 per cent of members of the party in government are now women.
The problem lies in ensuring that progress is maintained. Past experience indicates that things start to go wrong when it comes to succession. We saw that at the last general election, not just in one party but across all three. We have seen the same in the trade union movement. The movement is not covered by the Bill, but—who knows?—if the Bill is a success there may be just cause in the future.
I was privileged to sit on the TUC General Council as a general secretary elected by my union. One-third of the membership were women. There were two other women general secretaries on the council at that time: Liz Symons, as she was then known, the very able Deputy Leader of this House, and Diana Warwick, who is also now a Member on these Benches. None of us was replaced by a woman general secretary. We see that kind of development in all the various agencies in our community. However, if we do not start to make a change where we can—as a Parliament—the necessary changes will not come about.
I have known the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, who is also a friend, more years than I care to mention. I shall not embarrass either myself or the noble Baroness by stating the number of years. We worked together through the Women's National Commission, pushing forward women's issues. We both genuinely felt that we were making progress. Now, when I look back, 25 years later, I see that we were making progress, but with insufficient speed. More importantly, we were not able to bed the roots of that progress so that the involvement of women became a way of public life.
I too have read the reports of the Bill's various stages in the other House. People may have been too embarrassed to oppose the Bill outright, but all kinds of silly reasons have been put forward. One Member from the party that I am proud to be a member of argued, "How dare you stop a good man coming forward". He assumed that there were no good women. One honourable lady from the main Opposition party said that there was no need to do it this way because there were other ways. I heard that argument many years ago, but nobody has ever explained what the other ways are and no other ways have worked.
I shall not take up any more of the House's time. I wish the Bill good speed. I hope that there will be a consensus behind it and that it will not be amended. It will then be incumbent on the political parties, under the permissive aspects of the Bill, to start to embed it in their own organisations and make it a way of life.
3.41 p.m.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, like everyone who has spoken, I welcome the Bill. It is encouraging that that welcome has come from all round the House. We hope that that will continue as the Bill progresses through its stages.
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, I praise the two women Ministers who piloted the Bill from its initial stages. It is good that they are here today. They were aware that timing is very important for the Bill. It is important that we get it through in order to be able to make changes at the relevant party conferences if the political parties so choose so that the details of the Bill can be implemented. Even if changes are not made in Scotland and Wales, I hope that parties there will take note of the existence of the legislation and maintain their high levels of women representatives.
I am pleased that we now have a date for the Committee stage—21st January, in case it is not already in noble Lords' diaries. Like other speakers, I regret that the legislation is necessary. Overt discrimination and sexual harassment are still prevalent in our political parties. Attitudes have barely changed since the days, an awful long time ago, when I considered being a parliamentary candidate. On one occasion I was asked, on entering the room, "Whose wife are you?". At another selection for a safe seat I was told that I lost by one vote—I was the best candidate, but I looked too fragile. I do not think that anybody could ever accuse me of that, physically or in any other way. The man who told me was embarrassed and had to give some reason.
The evidence from the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Fawcett Society clearly illustrates that many well qualified and able women are not being selected because of the prejudice that is still ingrained in the process, as so many others have already said. That attitude has to change. I am sorry to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but we cannot wait. We have waited an awful long time for attitudes to change. It is not going to happen with any great speed. Positive action is crucial and it is urgently needed if women are to win winnable seats.
Other speakers have talked about the measures taken by other European countries. I shall not repeat those arguments. I have only one point to make on that subject. The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, quoted the position in France, where, at national level elections, parties can have their state funding cut if they do not field gender equity of candidates. Much as I would like to go down that road, I have a little problem with it, because it is a direct interference in the internal workings of political parties. I am not sure that we are ready for that yet.
I have recently rediscovered on my bookshelves a small book, just 23 pages long, called Rights of Women, by a man called J.R. Richardson. There is some coincidence in the name, which reminds me of Jo Richardson and her fight for women with a similar appeal. J. R. Richardson was a Chartist, and what is special about his book is that it was written in 1840 while he was in prison for his beliefs. He wrote that, based on the Bible, there was a strong case that women had a natural, civil and political right to participate fully in the affairs of the country. At the time, that was seditious propaganda; listening to some people, I fear that it is still considered seditious. Nevertheless, he argued that it was derogatory to the divine will,
- "for her to neglect so imperative a duty",
I wonder how J. R. Richardson would have felt about the slow progress that we have made and how he would have analysed the reasons for it. That is not to say, as other speakers have said, that there have not been various points in the past 150 years when we have felt that we were on our way to achieving J. R. Richardson's ideal, but it has been a very long process, and we have always to remember the
endeavours of the many distinguished and the many ordinary women who over the years have contributed to that progress, slow as it has been.The introduction of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Equal Pay Act 1975 raised great expectations that attitudes would change and that women would be appointed and elected to key decision-making bodies in Westminster. What was not expected was that, 25 years later, it would be necessary to amend the Sex Discrimination Act to achieve a part of that aim.
As the two former Ministers for Women said, we were also sufficiently naive as Labour women to believe that the introduction of all-women shortlists, in 1997, and the presence of more women MPs would not only change the culture of our party, but reverberate throughout the other parties. We have learned a lesson: it was not to be.
A theme that has run throughout this debate is that the country cannot afford to under-use half its talent. Moreover, women's under-representation creates a distance between elected representatives and a proportion of the electorate. Women electors must be able to see Parliament as reflecting society generally. Although there is no such thing as a typical woman, just as there is no such thing as a typical man, what women have to say comes just as much from their age, race, sexuality and social circumstances as from their gender. Women parliamentarians do, however, make a difference in a whole range of issues. They bring an experience of different occupational backgrounds, different life experiences and, unfortunately, the almost distinct experience of having to balance work and home responsibilities.
There are many examples, as cited by my noble friend Lady Morgan, of the effects that women have had in the other place—the influence of women MPs. I am sure that, by a strategy of private intervention and behind-the-scenes pressures, there is a greater sensitivity to the impact of policies on the needs of women.
We are often told by opponents of positive action that there is not discrimination, but that women are "congenitally" unsuited to be a Minister or an MP—in the view of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit—or that there is a lack of women coming forward for selection. Scotland and Wales have proved that not to be true. Given the right environment in the political parties, women will come forward. There is a pool of talent composed of women who are engaged and active in their local communities, and we have to ensure that they take that one step further whether it is as local councillors or in Westminster.
Little has been said by your Lordships about the position in local government, but I should like to make one point about it. We talk about the small percentage of women councillors, at 26 per cent overall, but that is a false figure. It is false because it masks the real differences in different parts of the country, from 5 per cent in some local authorities to 55 per cent in others. We certainly have to do something about the 5 per cent. Just as the nature and style of working in the
House of Commons must change, there must also be a reassessment of the culture of local government, which in many areas is still based on long traditions of male dominance and all that that means and goes with it.I believe that this legislation is another step towards equality of elected representation and that ultimately, although not through this legislation, we need to go further. Achieving real equality means women being visible and active participants at all levels of decision-making, local and national, in the Civil Service, in the media, in the financial institutions, in industry and on public bodies. For me, that is the only guarantee of a proper functioning democracy.
Meanwhile, this legislation will allow political parties to introduce positive action mechanisms significantly to increase the proportion of women elected representatives. I hope that they will all do so, behaving proportionately and sensibly while in no way being diverted from the goal of achieving gender equality.
3.50 p.m.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, it is now 83 years since women were given the vote and were allowed to enter Parliament. There is a document displayed only yards from here, in the Royal Gallery, recording the initiation of that process in 1884. I always show it to guests to this place when they are being given a tour.
It is also about 40 years since the contraceptive pill became commonplace and women started to take their rightful place in the workplace through having the opportunity to plan their families and careers alongside each other. And yet, as we have heard from the Leader of the House and others today, still only 18 per cent of our MPs are women.
Members of Parliament are, of course, only one type of political animal, albeit the kings and queens of the jungle. Other legislatures also have far too few women. However, I find it interesting, as does the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, that despite the fact that the majority of Members of your Lordships' House are appointed, the percentage here is even lower at 16 per cent. That indicates to me that there is a problem about women's political representation which is far wider than merely the problem of getting women elected.
I think it rather sad that there are not as many noble Lords on these Benches today as there are noble Baronesses. Discrimination, in all its manifestations, is a matter that should concern us all.
It is, of course, the under-representation of women that concerns us. I do not believe that any of the legislatures mentioned in the Bill have a problem with fair representation of men. Getting more women into Parliament is vital for our whole democracy. We have heard from the noble Baronesses, Lady Seccombe and Lady Howe, and my noble friend Lord Rennard how the lack of women in Parliament may have started to affect the turn-out of women in elections, particularly young women. We have heard also from my noble
friend Lord Rennard how women, when they do choose to vote, have their own way of making their wishes known.As my noble friend Lady Thomas of Walliswood pointed out, international evidence shows that only proportionate, temporary, positive action has achieved the objective of bringing women in Parliament up to a critical mass. It is often said that you need at least one-third of women in an organisation to make a real difference to its culture. I believe that that is true. Those countries and we, in the UK, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, mentioned, have found that women make good MPs, MEPs, MSPs, assembly members and councillors, bringing their vital but different perspective to the deliberations of their assemblies. We must encourage awareness of and respect for difference.
The fact that Britain is 33rd in the world in the league table of women's representation is not something of which to be proud. My own party has had particular difficulty in achieving fair representation in the House of Commons, a matter that is of great concern to myself and all my noble friends. As we have heard, we share with all parties difficulty with replacing retiring male MPs with new women MPs. There are clearly many favourite sons but very few favourite daughters.
However, we are discussing today a big step forward in the legal context within which women fight to represent their community. This Bill, apart from the specific ways in which it changes UK law, also sends out an important message to the citizens of our country. It says that we want women to participate fully at all levels of government; that we need and value their contribution; and we are the poorer for lack of it.
We on these Benches welcome the Bill and are deeply committed to what it seeks to achieve. In fact, our party's very constitution enshrines our firm opposition to any discrimination on the basis of gender as well as of faith, race, age or anything else. We believe that the United Kingdom cannot achieve the fair, free and open society we seek unless such discrimination is outlawed.
There are times, of course, when action needs to be taken to nudge along a little equality of access to the corridors of power and to remove the barriers. The Bill we are discussing today is one such action and is therefore fully justified. However, the Liberal Democrats have chosen not to use all-women short lists as a mechanism for achieving gender balance in our parliamentary party even if the law were to allow it. That does not mean that we oppose appropriate and proportionate action to remove barriers and ensure women fair representation and opportunity.
We already currently have legal mechanisms for election to our federal committees which ensure a fair balance. We used the zipping mechanism for the party lists in the last European election. We are delighted that half of our number of MEPs elected at that time were women. We are also delighted that they have since been joined by an additional number of men.
We have ambitious targets. We ensure that selection committees are balanced and that short lists have at least one of each gender. We also insist on gender-neutral questions and mandatory training for selection committees in non-discriminatory practices. We offer special help and training to meet the needs of both genders with aspirations to enter all our legislatures.
There are of course, apart from all-women short lists, many other mechanisms which will become open to us when this Bill is made law. Pairing and clustering seats have had considerable success in Scotland and other countries where women are now much more fairly represented. We have not as yet ruled out any of those.
Your Lordships will know that we on these Benches are firmly committed to fair votes, otherwise known as proportional representation. There are many mechanisms of PR in operation all over the world. None of them in itself ensures fair representation of women. But different PR mechanisms can certainly help and can be used to achieve the objective of making sure that sections of a population receive their fair share of power. How that could be done is clearly a matter for debate at another time.
We are happy, therefore, that this is an enabling Bill and not a prescriptive one. We did not seek to amend it in another place and we are unlikely to do so here. We are happy that the Bill contains a sunset clause, because if it has not achieved our objective by 2015, there is something else going wrong and other action may be needed—indeed, it should have already been taken.
We are acutely aware that time is of the essence. Candidates for the most contentious seats in the House of Commons are already being selected by all political parties. It is therefore vital that this enabling legislation gets onto the statue book as soon as possible.
Can the noble and learned Lord assure us that time will be made available early in the new year for the remaining stages of this Bill? In the light of the comments of my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill, I also ask the noble and learned Lord what protection the Government will give to political parties as they test the Bill in operation. I am sure that the Government do not intend that political parties, with good intentions in line with the objectives of the Bill, should have to face expensive legal challenges. Would public money be available to defend such cases in the interests of the rights of 51 per cent of our population who are female? It seems that that could be necessary despite the reassurance of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, that there are no barriers in EU law to the ways in which this Bill will probably be implemented.
We are reassured that the Bill leaves all other protections of the Sex Discrimination Act intact. That is vitally important to ensure fairness across the whole of society. We see the Bill as part of the continuum of providing all our citizens with fair representation. Women are by far the biggest section of our community under-represented in public life, but as we
have heard, there are others, too. Many of us are of the opinion that women can be the forerunners for others. If we can break the mould in favour of women, the largest group, we can more easily address the problem of under-representation of other groups too.We wish the Bill a fair wind and look forward to the forthcoming stages with optimism that it will contribute to the fairer representation of our whole community in all the local, national and international legislatures in which we participate. I cannot think of a better way to celebrate the beginning of the Christmas holidays than to have had the pleasure and privilege of taking part in this excellent debate.
4 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, not least for their unanimity of support for the Bill. It is a particular pleasure for all of us that the noble Baronesses, Lady Jay and Lady Morgan, are present on this occasion as it is the culmination of a long struggle on both their parts.
It is unusual in my experience of this House when a question of social policy is involved that one does not have a contribution from the Bishops or, indeed, the Law Lords, but I suppose that both excellent bodies of men would have been in some difficulty on this occasion!
By and large everyone agrees on the thrust of the measure. Particular questions were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, and by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, and were touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. I shall return to those in a moment or two.
The noble Lord, Lord Norton, took a different stance. Not for the first time I was genuinely interested in what he had to say and not for the last time we find ourselves in some disagreement. First, this is not a measure to bring about a socially representative Parliament. That is not its only purpose. I believe that it seeks to bring about a House of Commons which is truly reflective of the society in which we live. Secondly, it will offer the House of Commons the opportunity to tap into a vast reservoir of wasted talent. Thirdly, it is a step towards doing away with endemic discrimination in this country.
It was of interest to me, when I listened with care to all the speeches, to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, point out that women were first allowed to study law in 1901. She pointed out how far or how little we might have travelled a century later. The Bar Council, excellent body that it is, has had one female chair person in the whole of its history. The Law Society has not had a single female president. It will this coming year, if all goes well, in the form of an excellent solicitor from Swansea, Caroline Kirby. That just goes to show how foolish it is to be complacent and think that we have made any particular steps forward.
My noble friend Lord Brooke spoke of the measure as—
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