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Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way. If he is
saying that the purpose of the measure is to produce a House of Commons that is more reflective of society, I presume that he is not talking simply of a strict method of counting Members in the other place and also that the measure is designed to end discrimination. My point still holds that it is not just women who are discriminated against in that process and that if you want a House of Commons that is more reflective of society it is not just more women you need in it but other members of society as well. As the noble and learned Lord has made clear, he believes in variety in the membership of legislative chambers.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, certainly. That is why this Chamber does rather better than the Commons in terms of variety. That demonstrates that pure democracy—if that is what it is—in terms of electing everyone does not necessarily produce the desired outcome. That is why I am sure that the Liberal Democrats will not urge an entirely elected House of Lords.
I was asked why this Second Reading is being held on 20th December, rather late in the year. I should have thought that was perfectly plain. It is the birthday of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, and I wanted to offer her a decent present.
My noble friend Lord Brooke spoke of this as a small Bill, which it is. It is one small Bill, one giant leap for womankind. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, was right to say that this is only the beginning. We in this House shall have to attune ourselves to sensible ways of working, not simply to be family friendly but to be human friendly so that we can all do our work properly.
On the legal questions, the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, asked about the equal treatment directive. Our understanding is that that does not apply to the electoral process; in other words, selection for an election is not comparable to normal selection for employment. We are firm in our view on that.
The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, asked a number of questions, to which I give this answer. On balance, we consider that the differential treatment of men and women envisaged by the Bill would be,
- "capable of being justified under ECHR Article 14 and would be unlikely to be held to be incompatible with Article 14 taken together with Article 3 of Protocol No. 1".
We take the view that it would be possible for a political party to exercise the freedom to engage in positive discrimination in selecting candidates contained in the Bill in a manner that would be permissible under European Community law. Therefore, I think we are in agreement that the real question to be considered is not the one on which we disagree—namely, whether a political party is likely to be found to be a public authority—but whether the
remedies must be proportionate to the evil detected. That, of course, depends on the particular circumstances that are found to obtain. In particular—
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. First, on the European Union law issue, is he aware that the Jepson case was not about whether the electoral process fell within the scope of EU law but that the tribunal came to the conclusion so far as EU law was concerned—I am now reading from the decision—that Members of Parliament are engaged in an occupation involving public service, for which they receive remuneration from public funds, and that that is why it falls within the broad definition in the EU equality directive? Secondly, so far as the Select Committee is concerned, is he aware that, though we found the Bill compatible, we went on to say that political parties are public authorities and potentially liable under the Human Rights Act, under Article 3 read with Article 14 of the Convention?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I was aware of both those points because the case of Jepson is contained in a footnote to the report. I was well aware of the view taken about whether or not the political party was a public authority. I believe that the Committee came to the conclusion, without attempting a definitive view, that it might well be. In any event, that is a matter for the courts in due time. In a sense, that is not the central issue. The central issue is not whether or not it is a public authority. The question is whether it has behaved consistently and compliantly with ECHR. It seems to me that if the outcome is produced by proportionate remedy, that would be entirely lawful. I am grateful to see my noble friend Lord Lester nodding his agreement.
The ignoble question of funding, raised latterly by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, is a matter on which political parties will form their own judgments, as they do on the content of their electoral literature, posters and matters of that kind. They must take their own legal advice. Of course, the Liberal Democratic Party has the infinite benefit of the gratuitous advice that will be offered by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. However, I believe that one can overdo these matters. One needs a scheme or schemes produced by political parties, which are then vetted by legal advice. It seems to me that that kind of advice will not involve enormous expense.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, perhaps the noble and learned Lord would like to know that not only is the advice given free and gratuitously, but that the head of my chambers is a woman, that my chambers' practice manager is a woman, that most of the distinguished silks in my chambers are women, which goes to show that under an elected system in my chambers one can get the right results; and we are much better for it than other chambers, including, I imagine, the one of which the noble and learned Lord was himself a member.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, it was quite a small chambers, and there was probably a closed list as well!
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also asked for an indication of the timetable. I am happy to say that, my arm having been twisted almost from its socket by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, the Committee stage will be as early as 21st January. We are not delaying and, given good will and a fair wind, we should get the Bill on to the statute book promptly. My noble friend the Chief Whip points out that there is nothing to stop parties from drawing up their tentative proposals long before Royal Assent. They would be ready for the pressure of immediate elections.
I am grateful to noble Lords for the quality of the debate. I realise that it is in a sense inconvenient, but we were determined to complete Second Reading before we broke for Christmas, and I am glad that that has pleased the House.
Before the Question is put formally, I wish all of us a happy and restful Christmas, not least the staff who serve us so faithfully, generously and cheerfully. And God bless Tiny Tim!
Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is a very distinguished lawyer, which means that he is skilled at not altogether answering questions. Does the more reflective House of Commons that he wants entail 51 per cent of its membership being women?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: No, my Lords, it does not, because human life—happily—is not that simple. If 49 per cent of Members of the House of Commons were women, my noble friend Lady Jay and I could live with that. Equally, if 51 per cent of the Cabinet were women, we could live with that as well, because that would be genuinely reflective. That is the way in which British society has always worked. It does not work on narrow arithmetical calculations. I commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Adjournment
4.11 p.m.
Lord Carter: My Lords, in moving that we adjourn for a well-earned Christmas Recess, it is safe to say that we have had a more than usually testing and demanding autumn term. I cannot remember another term that began with three emergency recalls of Parliament and incorporated two quite separate emergency Bills. The political temperature has been high, our workload has been heavy and public attention has been focused on this House to a high degree. However, what strikes me is that despite all of that, the usual channels have been a haven of sanity, refreshment and cheerfulness, enlivened by the occasional game of ping-pong!
The conventions of the House prevent me from referring to the noble Lords, Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Roper, as my noble friends but the truth is that, although they may not technically be my political friends, they have extended real co-operation to me. Our working relationship has been happy, which I value enormously. I am most grateful to them and I wish them both a well-earned rest.
However, I discovered that the usual channels have not cornered the market in wheeling and dealing. Our illustrious and well-liked Principal Doorkeeper, Mr Skelton, retires this Christmas after nearly a quarter of a century of service to the House. I understand that his reputation for wheeling and dealing is such that in his previous incarnation, when he had certain responsibilities for Air Force supplies, rumour has it that he struck a private deal for seven RAF aircraft—and I understand actually closed the deal! What an asset it would have been to the usual channels if his career had followed a different course. As it is, we have benefited from his services in other ways and I am sure that noble Lords will wish to record our gratitude and wish him a long and happy retirement.
I also thank noble Lords for the long hours that they have worked and the careful attention they gave to legislation and debates in the House.
As ever, we are all grateful to the staff in all departments who serve us so well with such little fuss and to such high standards. I trust that all noble Lords and staff will have a happy and fulfilling Christmas and that we shall all be able to spend the time that we wish with family and friends.
When we return in January it is just possible that we may need to summon up a little more energy than we can at present. But that is for after the Recess. It gives me great pleasure to wish all noble Lords and staff a happy Christmas.
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