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Lord Ezra: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, made an important point about projects. Is the Minister aware of the difficulty that could be caused with CHP schemes or others that will clearly save energy being delayed until they know where they stand on the emissions trading arrangements?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, we very much hope that good CHP schemes will come into the system. Some of them will be part of an individual company's ability to set itself targets and some will be under the project
arrangements. It is only a matter of months before the full rules are available. It is important that we move as rapidly as possible on all parts of the scheme. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, that CHP projects will contribute to meeting our targets in that area.
Baroness Thornton: My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House of any government schemes in place to encourage companies that are reluctant to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the UK emissions trading scheme is exactly such a scheme. It will reduce greenhouse gases and involve market mechanisms in the delivery of that aim. As the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, the Government are also providing £215 million over five years for firms that voluntarily take on emissions reduction targets. Those who are outside the scheme will miss out compared with those inside. The scheme will also provide significant gains from what might be called "learning by doing". Firms will be able to engage in that market at a later stage. The system is designed as an incentive, one way or another, to firms to come into the scheme and not to resist the pressure for reductions in emissions. We hope that the bulk of British industry will eventually participate in this or other means of meeting our Kyoto targets.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, further to the Minister's answer to my noble friend Lord Jenkin, representations have been made to us about the delay in the rules and the effect that that will have on investment. This is the time of year when companies are often looking forward to their forward time investment. Is the Minister concerned that investment may be lost and that new projects may fail to claim money that they would otherwise be able to obtain?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the discussions on the scheme have continued for some time. Consequently, the bulk of industry is aware of the scheme's broad attributes, and I should have thought that companies would have already begun to take into account both the availability of the market mechanism and of the government money available under the scheme. I should therefore think that it would not have a serious effect on investment decisions in the coming few months.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, the Government give the impression that they are not aware that there is a substantial trade in emissions permits on the Internet, or that the only country currently unable to participate in that trade is the United Kingdom—because the UK Government have not yet made the rules and firms do not know where they stand. Will the Government now get ahead and deal with it?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I dispute that that is the case. In many ways, this is the cutting edge scheme across Europe. The European Union has proposed some slightly different rules, but there is no way in
which those would come into play except at the back end of the timetable of this scheme. Although voluntary trading is occurring in North America and around the world, this scheme would be the first and the most effective and comprehensive emissions trading system. In that, as I said, we are ahead of the world and not behind. I think that the noble Lord is being slightly misleading on that point.Space: United Kingdom Priorities
2.51 p.m.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What are the main priorities of the United Kingdom's Space-Science and Technology programmes, following the European Space Agency ministerial meeting in Edinburgh in November.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Sainsbury of Turville): My Lords, at the European Space Agency Ministerial Council in Edinburgh, the Government pursued their main priorities in space by investing in programmes to develop future commercial space markets, underpin future environmental policy and support outstanding scientific achievements. The main UK commitments were: almost £90 million in new communication satellite systems over six years; £147 million spread over 10 years towards the European Space Agency's Living Planet research programme; more than £15 million towards developing operational environmental satellite systems; and more than £130 million for astronomy and planetary science projects over four years.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree with the new director of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, in the United States, that the international space station is too expensive, and with many European scientists and engineers that earth-observing, space-science and communications satellites should be the main focus of Europe's space efforts? Will he also assure the House that UK government funding will be sufficient to enable the maximum participation by the UK space industry in those programmes? I declare my interest as a professor in space and climate physics.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I certainly agree that the international space station, which I think is now costed at 40 billion dollars, is not clearly—in most people's terms—value for money, and that space investment is much better focused on the three matters that I mentioned: outstanding science, commercial opportunities, and the key environmental observation policies such as Envisat, the InfoTerra/TerraSar project, GMES and the Living Planet science programme.
Lord Razzall: My Lords, does the Minister accept that Edinburgh provided a missed opportunity for Her
Majesty's Government in relation to the Galileo project—which noble Lords will remember is intended to achieve an independent, satellite-based navigation system? Does he accept that Galileo provides a significant opportunity for the British space industry and British industry generally? Does he also accept that, in space-speak, if the Government are not prepared to provide funding in addition to their European commitments—and in line with funding provided by Germany, Spain, Italy and France—although the project may well be a small step for the European Union countries, the Government will have taken no giant leap in Edinburgh?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, the UK Government are very supportive of Galileo, and our position is entirely consistent with the decisions on Galileo reached at Laeken, where the various Prime Ministers asked the Transport Council to come to a decision on funding for Galileo, in March, having taken account of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report on it. If a decision is taken to go ahead, we shall contribute to it.
Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, will the Minister say whether any of the committed funds will improve the observation of potentially hazardous near-earth objects? Is he aware that, earlier in the month, there was one potentially hazardous near-earth object that was very close in planetary terms and about which we had only 25 days' warning? Will any of the funds improve the vigilance that I, and many others, believe is necessary in this area?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I think that a part of ESA's potential science programme would cover near-earth objects. However, in view of the sums that were allocated to the programme, it is rather unlikely that that will be one of its first priorities. I remind the House that we have just recently updated the actions that the Government are taking on the matter, including not only making the National Space Science Centre the information centre for the UK on near-earth objects, but a programme to use our telescopes at La Palma for tracking near-earth objects. There will be a trial use of those telescopes in February.
Lord Rea: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that a small group of us on the Science and Technology Select Committee recently visited the space science research centre at Leicester? The work that it is doing is not only—forgive me—blue skies research, looking at other planets and galaxies, but has some very practical uses in observing the earth's atmosphere and surface from a great height, which has very considerable and quite immediate economic benefits. Will he assure us that the funding which he mentioned for space research in this country will enable that centre and others like it to have stable funding in the next five to 10 years?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I do not think that I can guarantee that there will be stable funding
for any such individual space laboratory, although I think that Leicester is a very good laboratory and likely to receive more than its fair share of funds. I assure the noble Lord that we are putting very substantial sums into projects that have great relevance to monitoring projects to do with earth observation. I think that such projects are very important. I also hope that it is clear from my comments that we are putting very large sums into the Envisat and InfoTerra/TerraSar project—which is very relevant to geo-information products and services, and will answer some of the key questions. The Living Planet science programme will, for example, investigate whether ice sheets are melting and what impact that might have on the gulf stream. Those are very relevant and important issues.
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