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Lord Carter: My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Baroness has taken this action. She knows that there has been a misunderstanding. The three Chief Whips heard about it just before half-past two. Once again, she has not consulted the Whips or the usual channels. I understand that there was some agreement between the noble Baronesses, Lady Byford and Lady Miller, regarding the timing of the amendment. However, none of the three Chief Whips was informed and we are in some difficulty. We were then asked to produce a revised speakers' list, which I have done.
I hope that the noble Baroness does not want to press the point. I am sure that we all understand that she will want to refer to the amendment when she makes her speech in her place on the list. She will then be able to move the amendment, and debate will take place on it. My noble friend Lord Whitty will respond to it at the end, and to other speakers, and will take it into account. There has been a misunderstanding. I do not think that the usual channels are at fault. I hope that we can stick to the revised speakers' list.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, perhaps I may say to the Government Chief Whip that the Public Bill Office sent me a procedural brief today, which stated that I was to speak after the Minister. However, I do not wish to press the point if the Government have made a mistake. I look forward to hearing the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. However, she cannot speak to my amendment as I have not yet moved it. I shall revert to the order on the speakers' list, as I believe that that is in the best interests of the House.
3.33 p.m.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, we are here today to give a Second Reading to the Animal Health Bill. It is a comparatively small Bill but one which gives huge powers to the Minister to enter an individual's premises for the purpose of inspecting and slaughtering animals. In my view, the Bill should not be entitled the Animal Health Bill but instead the "Animal Death Bill". At this stage I remind your Lordships of our family farming interests.
I have grave concerns about the Bill. I had originally considered voting against it at Second Reading. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has tabled an amendment—I look forward to hearing about it shortly—which regrets that the Government are pushing ahead with the Bill before the various foot and mouth inquiries have reported. Why this sudden haste to rush the Bill through? Why not wait until the Government's own inquiries have been completed? The Government say that they will respond to the recommendations from those inquiries but that alterations will no doubt have to be made to the Bill. I repeat: why is there undue haste when alterations may be inevitable?
The Minister, Mr Elliot Morley, recently called for a complete review of all legislation relating to animal welfare; some 11 Acts. I support such a step. Consultation on this matter will end by the end of April. That is another reason to wait. Conservatives are willing to support the introduction of sensible, practical, proportionate measures to deal with future outbreaks of foot and mouth and other diseases, but those assumptions and legislative requirements must be based on good science and not brought forward as a knee-jerk response to last year's outbreak. My honourable friend Ann Winterton referred to the lack of support for the Bill from all sides of the House and to the considerable reservations expressed at Second Reading.
When the Bill was considered in another place, Members from all sides of the House expressed their concerns, particularly about the draconian powers being sought. Mr Morley indicated that he would give consideration to those concerns, yet the Bill was passed without a single amendment being accepted. The Government have failed to understand the depth of feeling, and, indeed, the amount of mail that many of us have received. Consequently, we have all been overwhelmed by representations from organisations and members of the public.
It is against that background that we begin our debate today. The Minister should not underestimate the effects of last year's foot and mouth disaster on the farming community and on the thousands of rural businesses and tourism enterprises, which were financially crippled too. The Government's handling of the epidemic has come in for much criticism. We raised our concerns in this House and called for a full public inquiry so that lessons could be learnt to ensure that such an outbreak would be prevented in future. The Minister, and other Ministers, acknowledged that mistakes were made, but refused to consider a public inquiry.
Recently, Professor Mark Woolhouse told the Select Committee on agriculture that if the Government had imposed a ban on livestock movement 72 hours before they did, it would have halved the spread of the disease and saved some three million animals from slaughter and £1 billion from being paid out. The same Government now ask this House to give them sweeping powers to enter premises and kill animals on suspicion that the disease might be present.
The Bill does nothing to stop diseases being brought into the UK in the first place. The Minister will recall the number of times that we on these Benches have raised the issue of illegally imported meats. We have called for a tightening up of import controls. Clive Lawrence, director of Ciel Logistics, which is responsible for animal product shipments, warned Nick Brown that meat from Africa was being smuggled through Heathrow and that it carried an extremely high risk of foot and mouth.
The Bill is strong on measures for suppressing farmers but lacks any reference to the Government's role or duty in controlling or preventing the disease in
the first place. The Bill is considered by many as one which takes all rights of appeal away from the farmer. The Government will be able to seek authorisation from a magistrate to enter premises and kill animals on suspicion. At that stage, the farmer will have no access to the magistrate and therefore will be unable to appeal against such authorisation. The Government maintain that the Bill does not contravene human rights. However, we have been informed differently. In Committee, that aspect of the Bill will be debated rigorously.Further, although the Government maintain that the Bill does not contravene human rights, we suggest that it arguably offends against the European Convention on Human Rights. It denies the right to "a fair hearing". Therefore, the Secretary of State's certificate under Section 19(1)(a) must be clarified. Again, in Committee, an answer will be sought.
If the Government are serious about animal welfare and animal health, they should extend the legislation to all those who import, process and retail food and food products in the UK. They should bring in a Bill making it illegal for anyone to buy, sell or consume pork from countries without a tether ban, chicken from countries which employ battery cages smaller than the EU standard, and beef from countries in which foot and mouth or any diseases on list "A" are present. The Minister referred to the likelihood of more diseases coming into this country. Perhaps it is time for him to take action on that observation.
The Bill raises problems for the president of the Royal Society of Veterinary Surgeons. He has warned that the legislation could become unworkable for vets and create epidemics much more widespread and damaging than the foot and mouth crisis. He describes the Bill as containing,
- "many unsupported scientific judgements",
- "an ethical issue which is critical to the regulatory role of the RCVS".
The Minister will be aware of some of the court cases that have been heard. He will know of the case brought by MAFF against Mrs Upton which was heard by Mr Justice Harrison. He will recall that Mr Justice Harrison found in favour of Mrs Upton. In his summing-up, the judge said:
- "So far as the pig is concerned, Mr Smith submits that there is no evidence that there has been any physical contact between pig and anyone or anything that has been carrying the virus and that, therefore, if the pig were to be infected, it could only have been through air-borne transmission and that, on the scientific evidence, it is simply not feasible for that to have happened, as such a large amount of the virus has to be transmitted in order to infect the pig".
Under the Bill the appeal system would not save animals from death. The farmer would be able to make the appeal only after the killing had taken place. In
addition, he would have to pay a fee for the honour of so doing. We are concerned about the complexity and the timescale of the proposed appeals system. In our view, it is totally inadequate.To add insult to injury, the Government propose that compensation—the Minister referred to this—should be limited to 75 per cent of the value of the animal, with the additional 25 per cent being made available should the Government decide that biosecurity measures in place are adequate. This proposal contravenes the normal British stance that everyone is innocent until proved guilty. Any compensation deduction or penalty must be made on the basis that farmers and everyone have been given clear advice on what is meant by biosecurity measures and what measures they are supposed to be carrying out.
The Bill before us has two main purposes; first, to provide additional powers to tackle foot and mouth disease and for those powers to extend to other animal diseases by order, and, secondly, to provide additional powers to deal with TSE in sheep. I have questioned the Government on the draconian powers in respect of foot and mouth; I have equal concerns about the assumptions they make on TSE. The department's research into whether BSE is in the sheep population has been, at best, a disaster. Noble Lords will remember the whole episode of cows' and not sheep's brains being tested which resulted in September in the announcement by Elliot Morley that it was possible that the whole of the sheep flock might have to be killed.
I cannot state firmly enough that this not only set panic among farmers but among members of the public. It is monstrously unfair to farmers and to consumers for the Government to scaremonger, threatening millions of people with the possibility of contracting CJD from eating lamb. Thankfully, the Food Standards Agency stepped into the breach and affirmed on 10th January that lamb posed no risk to human health. But the fears had already been set running. I am not against the eradication of scrapie from our flock but the voluntary route was working, albeit slowly. If changes are needed to speed up such eradication, they must be based on good science.
The Minister referred to the lobby by the Rare Breeds Survival Trust. At a meeting for foot and mouth stakeholders held on 9th November 2001, it reported that a representative of the Chief Scientist's office admitted that it was still not known how many varieties of scrapie there are. If one does not know what one is looking for, how can one legislate for its eradication? I urge caution on the Government in this area before proceeding with a compulsory slaughter policy.
As noble Lords will by now have gathered, I have grave reservations about the Bill. For example, it gives Ministers the power to slaughter both vaccinated and unvaccinated animals. Will that be acceptable to our European colleagues? At the international meeting held in Brussels on 12th and 13th December 2001, Mr Alun Michael was reported as stating that he
welcomed the consensus about eradication of FMD and noted that vaccination could be a tool. He was sympathetic to the points made about the mass slaughter of animals. But the implementation of those recommendations needed better testing, purer vaccines and better trade rules.Are we not rushing ahead with a Bill when there are still so many questions? This morning, Farmers' Weekly presented a petition to Tony Blair at No. 10 Downing Street. It called for an independent public inquiry. Some 146,000 people had signed that petition. Perhaps their voice and those of the many others expressed over the past months will be recognised. The Government at last announced on Friday— so close to today's Second Reading—that they will be holding consultations with stakeholders. The Minister referred to that. The consultation is due to end by 15th March. Surely, if there are all these consultations, it behoves the Government to wait rather than to push ahead with the Bill. After Second Reading, the Bill should not be considered further until those consultations and inquiries are completed.
The Bill is a modification of an existing Act of Parliament. It is itself likely to be modified. This is a Bill which affects only England and Wales. It does not include Scotland and Northern Ireland. Especially in Scotland, it could pose problems for future regulations. The Bill is the panic reaction of a government who know that they acted late, ill-advisedly and almost illegally in controlling the foot and mouth outbreaks last year. They know that some of their proposals have no scientific foundation; that they lack the support of the veterinary profession; and that they deprive an important sector of our community of any effective rights of appeal. In short, it is a bad Bill.
3.50 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the Bill be now read a second time, at end insert "but this House regrets that the Government have brought forward legislation to deal with the control of future outbreaks of animal diseases without waiting for the recommendations of the Royal Society inquiry which they commissioned to report by the summer".
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I should like noble Lords to be certain that we Liberal Democrats accept that there is a need to amend and supplement the Animal Health Act 1981. We need to ensure that our animals—our livestock—are healthy. We believe that ensuring the health of our nation's livestock is essential for a number of reasons: because, in choosing to keep animals, we become responsible for their welfare; because an outbreak such as that of foot and mouth disease last year costs the nation billions of pounds; because some diseases can threaten public health; and crucially, because in parts of Britain, the whole future of farming, rural communities and the landscape is dependent on a vibrant, healthy national livestock herd.
We need to restore national and international confidence in the health of British livestock, and we agree that there is a need to work towards a scrapie-free national sheep flock. We accept those needs, but I am moving the amendment because we are unhappy that a Bill addressing those needs came through the other place and comes to your Lordships' House in advance of the report of the scientific review, in particular, and of the other inquiry reports that should have shaped it. Indeed, it passed through the other place with no amendment whatsoever. That was not because the Standing Committee was happy with it, but because the Government used their majority.
The main change from the 1981 Act, which the Bill will amend, is that it gives the Minister powers to slaughter for the purpose of controlling foot and mouth disease and, by order, other diseases not because animals are, or are suspected of being, infected, but because they are—and I quote from the Bill—
- "any animals the Minister thinks should be slaughtered".
That is a major change from the 1981 Act, and any judgement of its necessity must be based on sound scientific consensus and proper consultation, neither of which we have at present. It is a major change for veterinarians to order slaughter based solely on ministerial wish, with no evidence of infection or contact with infection. The Bill presumes that no test will become available to do quick, pen-side tests for infectivity.
Nor does the Bill contain any definition of the geographical area over which the ministerial power might apply. Might it be two miles from an outbreak? Might it be 50 miles downwind of an outbreak? If the Government are after the right to exercise a contiguous cull, they should certainly define what "contiguous" means.
The Bill also changes the right to compensation for slaughtered stock. Animals will be slaughtered and the farmer will be entitled to receive only 75 per cent compensation. The other 25 per cent will be payable if he has been helpful in the slaughter of his animals and if his bio-security arrangements have been adequate.
The public inquiry that ought to have been held may well have concluded that a contiguous culling power was essential. But it would have done so in the context of hearing how to build a firm consensus between officials and farmers and would have spelt out in full the duties and responsibilities of each. However, the Government chose to commission three separate inquiries into the future of food and farming, the lessons learnt from the 2001 outbreak and a third—to which my amendment refers—from the Royal Society into the transmission, control and prevention of animal diseases. The report of that inquiry, at least, ought to have been the basis of the Bill.
We should have had the latest science behind conclusions as to how to prevent the spread of such diseases. After all, science has moved on considerably since 1981 and any amendment of the 1981 Act should take that into account.
The extent of last year's outbreak of foot and mouth disease represented a number of failures: in knowledge, understanding and certainly in contingency planning. Successive governments failed to ensure that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food learnt the lessons set out in the Northumberland report.
There has also been a long-term failure to invest in the State Veterinary Service and in research into disease prevention and eradication. Contingency planning was clearly low on MAFF's list of priorities. Yet only the year before the outbreak, the Government had been warned of the threat of animal disease by the UN organisation responsible for that area. The Minister responded in Answer to my Written Question about whether the Government then believed the State Veterinary Service was adequate to deal with disease prevention. I do not believe that I received an adequate answer to my Question.
This is a bad Bill, and it will not put those matters right. A more comprehensive overhaul is needed. The Bill starts from the premise that farmers do not want to control and eradicate foot and mouth disease. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary. Affected members of the farming community co-operated with the Government to a huge extent in incredibly difficult and distressing circumstances. While there may have been a few examples of obstructive behaviour, they were certainly not the norm. Officials, too, were usually conscientious, over-stretched and trying to do their best in a stressful situation.
The Bill will not help those people's relationship. It will damage it, because it is only about what to do about "bad" farmers, careless farmers, or obstructive farmers. It says nothing about bad officials, careless officials or—crucially—about Ministers' responsibilities and duties.It aims to give officials the right to deal with animals as they think fit and to criminalise the farmer if they interpret behaviour as obstructive or even simply impeding. Would putting up one's arm to slow down a discussion, for example, be considered an impediment by an official in a hurry? The Bill provides all that with no right of appeal by the farmer.
The Bill then goes on to give the Minister or his officials the right to withhold 25 per cent of the compensation due to the farmer for his slaughtered stock if the person appointed by that same Minister thinks that the extent of co-operation with inspectors or other persons was inadequate. So a farmer who is stressed, distressed, exhausted or angry—not in a state to help but not actually obstructive—who fails to help as much as the inspector thinks fit could have his compensation reduced by 25 per cent.
Compensation can also be withheld if the inspector believes that the farmer or persons under his control acted in such a way as to create a significant risk of the
spread of foot and mouth. On the face of it, that is entirely reasonable. Yet the way in which the disease is transmitted is still unclear. Until the Royal Society reports, we know no more than during the outbreak. At that time, no one—officials, farmers or Ministers—really knew how much of a risk were vehicle movements or people movements, whether the pyres spread the disease or how many "dirty" officials—by which I mean officials who had visited infected premises—were working on other uninfected premises too soon. We need the Royal Society report to answer those questions. If the Government intend the Bill to enable them to withhold compensation due for creation of a significant risk, they should be able to issue precise guidelines as to how that risk is to be avoided.The Bill allows the Minister's official to be judge, prosecutor, defence and jury. First, he will decide whether the premises contain animals that pose a risk—on no evidence of disease, just his suspicion. Then he will decide if the farmer has maintained adequate bio-security for the past 21 days—no doubt sometimes debating that heatedly. His version of these events alone will then be presented to a magistrate. The officials would use a procedure analogous to that seeking an arrest or search warrant, but this is not about a temporary loss of liberty or the searching of premises. It is about the irreversible destruction of often valuable and much loved livestock against the owner's wishes.
If the magistrate agrees with that version, having heard no other, the Bill allows an inspector to require any person—not just the farmer or the stockman, but any aged aunt, visiting vicar or district nurse—to give such assistance as the inspector believes that he needs to slaughter the stock.
We should contrast all of that with the Act that the Bill would amend. The Animal Health Act 1981 makes it an offence to impede or obstruct an inspection and recognises that it might be a first or only offence. The Act simply requires the owner and person in charge of any sheep to,
- "comply with all reasonable requirements of the inspector as to the collection and penning of the sheep and afford all other reasonable facilities for the examination of the sheep by the inspector".
The 1981 Act lays duties on the Minister, too. For example, if the Minister is to destroy wildlife to contain a disease, he shall,
- "ensure that destruction is carried out on any such land in as safe a manner as is possible".
Mr Scudamore, the chief veterinary officer, told the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in another place on 31st October, in response to
Question 23, that he did not know what proportion of the original suspect cases in which culling took place proved to be negative. He said:
- "We do not know because the problem we had at the height of the outbreak was that we were removing contiguous premises and not sampling them. We did not have the resources to do that".
The Government have not produced hard scientific evidence that it was the lack of legal powers that caused the infection to spread so far. I heard what the Minister said, but I think that many people would contest that point. There is hard evidence, however, that well founded appeals saved the nation a good deal of money.
There is nothing in the first part of the Bill about promoting animal health. The Bill is silent on the relationship between the long-distance transportation of live animals throughout the country and the stress and subsequent vulnerability to disease that it causes. Section 37 of the 1981 Act addresses the issue as it was then, relating mainly to food and water. One of the main lessons that we learnt from 2001 was that the transportation of sheep had become a long-distance web of almost continuous travel. It was among livestock dealers, not farmers, that the disease was spread so fast. Seventeen of the first 20 cases in last year's outbreak were among dealers. Urgent action is needed to secure a market for farmers that obviates the need for the middle man and strengthens farmers' ability to market their livestock themselves.
The Government are also silent on the original cause of the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. It was, almost certainly, illegally imported meat or improperly checked meat from a country from which we import meat, despite the Government's assurances that it had not come from a region affected by foot and mouth disease. Although there are now warnings at airports, it is still the case that individuals are entitled to bring animal products into this country. If the Government are to deal with cases of urgency, it should have used the Bill to close that loophole.
We need legislation and action that truly address the question of animal health, including imports, adequate geographical spread of abattoirs and regulations and incentives to encourage those who try to follow the highest animal welfare standards. We must be sure that those who put animal health at risk are identified and dealt with. The part of the Bill that deals with the eradication of scrapie should have regard to the fact that the science behind it is still evolving rapidly. It is far too extreme to criminalise people. More exact science and legislation should follow, and that, too, should proceed from the report of the scientific community.
On Friday, the Minister issued a protocol on the slaughtering procedure, much too late to be considered by the other place, when it discussed the Bill. In his winding-up speech, the Minister may claim that it has a more reasonable tone than the Bill, but the powers of the Minister are enshrined in the Bill, not the protocol. In any case, I hope that the consultation on the protocol will be completed so that the House can have the benefit of it before it has to discuss our conclusions in any more detail.
Many noble Lords have grave concerns about the Bill. I look forward to benefiting from the depth of knowledge and experience of those who are about to speak in the debate. I commend my amendment to the House.
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the Bill be now read a second time, at end insert "but this House regrets that the Government have brought forward legislation to deal with the control of future outbreaks of animal diseases without waiting for the recommendations of the Royal Society inquiry which they commissioned to report by the summer".—(Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer.)
4.07 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, I wish that it were possible to give even a qualified welcome to the Bill. Undoubtedly, it is well intentioned, in so far as it would equip the department to deal more effectively with any future outbreak of foot and mouth disease. However, as has already been made plain, it has been greeted with great dismay in the farming community, the livestock industry and the veterinary profession. We must take those expressions of dismay seriously.
The Bill is harsh, unjust and untimely. It is harsh and unjust because it is so one-sided, giving sweeping powers to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, with practically no right of appeal and no need for explanation or justification and no opportunity for the farmer to be represented when an application is made for a slaughter order. The Bill shows no confidence in the farming community and assumes fault in biosecurity and compensation. Above all, the Bill is untimely. We still await the reports of the inquiries into the science of foot and mouth disease and the lessons to be learnt from last year, and the stakeholder consultations are about to take place. That makes the Animal Health Bill appear absurd in its timing, unhelpful in many of its provisions and unpleasant in its tone.
The Bill attempts to achieve a desirable end by undesirable and unacceptable means, and it leaves undone those things which it ought to have done, above all the provision of tougher and more effective import controls at docks and airports, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer said. Why, after all that we have been through, are we so slack and undisciplined about the matter, compared with, for example, the United States, Australia or New Zealand? It is unbelievable that we still do not have such import controls in place. An amendment along those lines is urgently needed, and I understand that
the Minister in another place, Mr Elliot Morley, indicated that the Government might welcome such an addition to the Bill. I hope so.Meanwhile, I wish to support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, which picks up on the untimely character of the Bill. The House has reason to be grateful to the noble Baroness. I hope that there will be careful consideration of and support for the amendment.
I intended to express sympathy with the Minister for having to introduce the Bill. I thought that he had, once again, found himself introducing government business in which his heart was not truly present. However, he passionately defended the Bill and said that that came from the heart. I know him to be a reasonable and fair-minded man, and I hope that he will listen to the debate and be as flexible and responsive in the Government's answer as he was, for example, over the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill. This House did an excellent job in improving the Bill during its passage through Parliament.
The farming community is still reeling from the effects of last year's traumatic experiences. It is battered, in almost every case impoverished further, with a few rare exceptions demoralised and very unsure about the future. The track record of the Government during the foot and mouth outbreak was not good. There were many confusions and delays as the crucial targets of 24 hours to slaughter and 48 hours to the disposal of carcasses of infected animals were often not met. There were grievous mistakes, with sometimes wildly inaccurate epidemiological modelling and misapplication of resources. The Minister acknowledged that there were faults. However, it is not reasonable to ask the farming community, in its present mood and in the light of that unhappy record of last year, to accept these even more draconian proposals.
We need clearer policies but we should first put in place import controls; then await the outcome of the two reports; and then bring forward a Bill which grants powers of entry and slaughter only after a public hearing in which both sides can take part. That need not involve any delay. We accept the rightness of an appeal to a magistrate, but ask for the simple courtesy of consultation and the justice of an equal right to make a case to the magistrate. There must be a commitment to introducing an immediate ban on all animal movements as soon as the disease is discovered. The delays in doing so last year were very serious.
There should be similar legislation to cover Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is deeply unsatisfactory and potentially dangerous if different provisions are made there from those in force in England and Wales, as the cross-border Cumbria/Dumfries example in the foot and mouth disease outbreak made clear, where similar policies were essential on both sides of the Border.
The compensation provisions in the Bill are the wrong way round, as has already been said. The assumptions should be the full 100 per cent compensation, with a proportion being withheld only if lax bio-security can be proved. The Minister
admitted that only 7 per cent of those cases which were investigated were serious cases of lax biosecurity. Most farmers are very responsible and the burden of proof should be reversed.The Bill needs to be more clearly drafted. The various usages in it—"veterinary surgeons", "veterinary inspectors" or just plain "inspectors"—do not encourage confidence and they leave room for uncertainty. While it is true that the current state of scientific knowledge, in particular the doubtful reliability of the test to distinguish between antibodies following vaccination and the presence of the virus itself, means that vaccination cannot yet be wholeheartedly recommended in place of slaughter, it would have been good if the Bill had provided for a different policy to be introduced as our scientific knowledge grows, as I hope it rapidly will.
I hesitate to touch on the highly technical sections of the Bill which deal with the elimination of scrapie. All responsible people must share the objective of eradicating this disease and all transmissible spongeform encephalopathies—a hard "c" of course because it comes from the Greek. The Minister in another place spoke of a protocol to ensure that the powers conferred in the Bill will not be used in a disproportionate, inconsistent or unfair way. It is fine for it to be in the protocol but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said, it needs to be on the face of the Bill, together with a formal commitment to local veterinary consultation.
I hope that this will be a helpful debate. I suspect that by the time it is finished the same points will have been made many times over. I am grateful for the privilege of having made one or two of them for the first time and having echoed the points made so admirably by the noble Baronesses, Lady Byford and Lady Miller, particularly the long list of desirable things which could well have been added to the Bill. I look forward to hearing what other noble Lords have to say, but only after that journey into the golden future of our railways on which we are about to embark.
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