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Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I simply agree with my noble friend. It is a very messy Bill.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it was the word "messy" that upset me. I believed that my noble friend was referring to me. I am glad that he was referring to the Bill. I am grateful that he put words into my mouth which I should not have dared put in myself. It is a very messy Bill, and I believe that it is wrong to call it an "animal health" Bill.
The Bill gives inspectors—civil servants—more power than almost anyone else has ever had. The powers to act against farmers are almost Hitlerite. The inspectors can enter a farm's premises and, if necessary, use force. They have simply to go not to a magistrates' court but to a justice of the peace and obtain a signed piece of paper. In other words, an inspector could go to a justice of the peace who was washing up after her breakfast and ask, "Would you mind signing this paper because we want to go on to someone's farm and slaughter all the animals?" The chances are that the justice of the peace would agree to do so. That is fairly awful.
I believe that sometimes the Government have no conception—indeed, nor have I—of what it is like to have one's animals killed. One looks after those animals all one's life and then finds them with their feet, in a state of rigor mortis, up in the air on one's own land. All one's life work has been destroyed and it is a most terrible thing. It is devastating financially, emotionally and as a reflection of one's life's work. It is not surprising that farmers do not take too kindly to Elliot Morley when he says,
- "I sometimes think that farmers are a pretty ungrateful lot".
- "What I know is that in this foot and mouth crisis, the people who have economically come out of it best of all are the farmers who have had foot and mouth".
To that festering sore of sorrow, the Government add this Bill. It is a sad fact that the Government have consistently refused a public inquiry. One asks why they have done so. My noble friend Lord Jopling said that he was the first to request such an inquiry, and I believe that he was right to do so. He gave an example of some of the things that went wrong. We all know of examples such as the occasion when the Army, the vets and all the killers, for want of a better word, were gathered ready with their bulldozers and diggers. Suddenly a health and safety inspector arrived and said, "Stop, stop". Why? "Because you do not have enough portaloos". As a result, the whole operation had to stop and the animals were left in a distressed state. That was no way to carry on.
We heard other stories of young men riding around on bicycles taking pot-shots at animals which had escaped. That was no way to carry out a government policy on slaughtering. That is why we wanted a public inquiry to be held. It was not only in order to blame the Government but to find out what went wrong. The Government—I say this with the greatest respect—were wrong not to have held such an inquiry. They say that they have set up three other inquiries, but we all know that issues can fall between the stools.
There should have been one inquiry. The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, said that the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease was the worst ever. She was right. It was far worse than the one in 1968. Following that outbreak an inquiry was held and produced very good guidelines for people to follow. I believe that it is a great pity that the Government have not set up a public inquiry following the latest outbreak, and I ask them to reconsider that decision.
I find it a grossly irresponsible attitude that some £5,000 million of government money was spent dealing with the foot and mouth outbreak and yet the Government are not prepared to say, "We shall now look at it to see what went wrong and whether we can improve matters in the future". The inquiry by Dr Iain Anderson on the lessons to be learnt from last year's outbreak has only just started to gather evidence. It has not deliberated, let alone provided any recommendations. Why did the Government not wait for those recommendations before starting to produce their solutions? We have a hugely dictatorial Bill in which a number of points are raised to which many noble Lords have drawn attention. Indeed, I do so, too.
I start by asking why the Bill refers only to England and Wales. If we are an island, it is nonsensical that the Bill does not include Scotland. I am sure that all sorts
of political problems are involved, but that is what happens when one has devolution. We now have the absurdity of certain rules applying on this side of the Border and others on the other side. That is no way in which to counteract the disease.The House of Commons was never able to consider the matter because of a programming Motion which applied to the Committee and Report stages of the Bill. Although Elliot Morley said that he would be prepared to consider amendments, as one noble Lord has already said, none was accepted. I want to ask the Government what their policy is on slaughter and compensation or vaccination. There always was a slaughter and compensation policy. Then in the middle of the outbreak there was a wobble: perhaps one should change to vaccination.
But what will happen next time an outbreak occurs? Shall we have slaughter and compensation or shall we have vaccination? Has anyone said what will happen? The vaccination arrangements have been greatly improved over the past 20 years. Has anyone said that we should change to vaccination, and have the Government indicated that they will do so?
Why are the Government giving huge powers to Ministers based on unproven science? Such action should be based on proven science. Faced with no evidence because they could not wait for it, why are the Government allowing inspectors to enter premises and enabling them to contact JPs to ask for a piece of paper to be signed so that they may enter a farm? The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, said that a person could be told to hold a cat while another person killed it. That is a fairly awful thing to happen but it is perfectly possible. Under the Bill the Government can virtually commandeer help. They can go on to a farm and say to a person, who may be a contractor, "Look, you have to come and help" and he will be liable to a fine if he does not do so. Whatever the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, says, the Bill enables the Government to kill any animal, be it pet, dog or horse. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, might say that the Government have no intention of doing that. However, that is what the Bill allows. That is a terrible power to give to people.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, said that that will not happen to pets. Your Lordships may remember the person who had a goat which used to sit on the hearth in her sitting room. The goat was killed because it was supposed to be liable to infection. The calf called Phoenix emerged from a whole lot of dead animals and was allowed to continue its life simply because everyone felt sympathy for it. That was a terrible decision. If the animals which were killed should have been killed, the calf should have been killed. If the calf was permitted to stay alive, all the animals should have been permitted to stay alive. Under the Bill, if the inspector comes in having had a terrible day, and says to the farmer, "I feel exhausted. Will you give me a cup of tea?", and the farmer says, "No, I won't", he can be accused of non-co-operation. That is a pretty rough tactic.
One point has been referred to by one or two other noble Lords. Why are the Government giving only 75 per cent of the value of the animal until the
inspector—no one else—has considered the matter and states, "That is all right. You have not done anything wrong. You can have your extra 25 per cent now"?What is the job of the Government in all of this? It is to control foot and mouth disease. One of the ways in which they do that is by saying that they have permission to cull various animals, to take them off people and kill them. To do that they should not compensate the person; they should buy the animals from them. However, they now say, "Oh no, this is compensation. We will give you only 75 per cent unless you, the farmer, can prove that you have been correct, in which case we can give you the extra 25 per cent". That is not compensation. It is a demonstration of the fact that one is being proved guilty until one can prove oneself innocent. That is a terrible thing to do. If a person has behaved improperly and has spread the disease, a court of law should be the place where that is dealt with.
There is a complicated appeal system. A farmer could find himself involved in three separate appeals, one of which is on biosecurity. I do not know who thought of that word, but it is a terrible word. I always dread hearing any word which begins with "bio". One thinks, "What on earth does that mean?" "Biosecurity" is a new word. I am sure that all farmers know exactly what it means. It really refers to whether one has properly disinfected one's premises or properly looked after one's transport. A farmer may be involved with an appeal on biosecurity, on evaluation of the animals and on what is a fair proportion for compensation. There are three separate appeals which all have to be made within a fortnight. If a farmer makes an appeal, he is capped on it; he is made to pay for it. That is monstrous. The whole idea of British justice is that one can appeal against a matter. An illegal immigrant can appeal against being told to go away, but if a farmer appeals because he thinks that the Government are not giving him his just desserts, he has to pay, which is monstrous.
The Bill shows that the Government are the boss, the state rules and the state decides. Let us look back to the 1950s and the 1960s and to what happened in Russia with totalitarianism and communism. We used to say how terrible it was because there, the Government, the state, ordered the people to do everything. The state told them what to do and the state ran their lives. That is happening here and now, not just over this Bill but over a number of other matters. The only difference is that we do not call it communism. We say that it is a new modern way of life. The state is running things. The Bill is an example of how the state is controlling what happens to farmers and on farmers' land.
I greatly respect the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I do not like being nasty to him over the Bill or anything else. However, this is a rotten Bill. It is a dictatorial Bill. The Government should have waited until they had proper answers. Elliot Morley states that the
farmers are an ungrateful lot. Perhaps he should look again at the Bill and he will see why the farmers feel as they do.6.5 p.m.
Lord Palmer: My Lords, one of the worst things about being a Member of this House is the possibility that one day one might have to follow the noble Earl in a serious debate. Last week, after his magnificent vintage Ferrers contribution, the Chamber literally emptied. I hope that that will not happen today, although I shall be brief. He always makes enormous sense. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will take on board the points he made.
Oh dear—here we go again—yet another hurried, panic-measure Bill, which all sectors of the agricultural industry have unanimously condemned, most especially because there has been no formal consultation. Once again, it will be up to this House in its present form—pre-"completing the reform", as Her Majesty's Government call it—to try to persuade Her Majesty's Government to think again. It is interesting to note that nearly half the speakers today come from the doomed band of hereditary Peers, all of whom have first-hand knowledge of the countryside and, indeed, of agriculture. "Knock the industry when it is on its knees" seems to be the new DEFRA motto.
I must declare an interest as someone who tries to farm in the Scottish Borders. Our farm was sandwiched between two outbreaks of foot and mouth disease last year, which meant that every single farm animal at home was slaughtered on the contiguous basis. Needless to say, tests taken from those animals proved negative. But all that is past history. However, the sight of the executioners waiting at the bottom of the road will be one that will haunt me for the rest of my life.
I live exactly 10 miles from the English border. It is upon cross-border issues that I wish to focus my few remarks. I echo most strongly the words of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. The issues of animal health and the control of any future outbreak of foot and mouth disease or, indeed, any other disease, as well as the eradication of scrapie from the national flock, are UK-wide concerns. They should not and cannot be dealt with separately by the different parts of the United Kingdom so that a situation could arise where different regimes are in place in Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales.
Whatever one may think of the Bill—with the exception of the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, it does not seem to have much support—or any other subsequent Bill the Government may bring forward, it is essential in my view that legislation that deals with these issues for England and Wales be matched by parallel legislation in Scotland and Northern Ireland and that such provisions come into force—this is the important fact—simultaneously across the United Kingdom.
It is extraordinary that a similar measure to the Bill is not currently before the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly, especially if it really is as
important and urgent as the Government would like us to believe. What would the cross-border arrangements be for a farmer who has land on both sides of the border? Indeed, I have friends who are in exactly that situation. They have a farm in England which runs into Scotland. There is no reference in the Bill to cross-border animal trade. That is a major flaw.It is also worth pointing out that were the Government in England and Wales to undertake an eradication of scrapie from the sheep population without those measures being matched in Scotland and Northern Ireland, that would have obvious consequences for the livestock trade within the United Kingdom as a whole. Indeed, it would act as a barrier to internal free trade. Lastly, it should be said that such provisions have serious implications for international trade as well.
The Government need to provide some indication of where they stand on these issues. It once again highlights that this Bill is fundamentally flawed, ill-timed and does not represent a fully thought out and considered approach to these vital issues.
6.10 p.m.
The Earl of Selborne: My Lords, like many other speakers today, I declare an interest as a livestock farmer, thankfully not in a foot and mouth area and thankfully not near the Scottish border.
I followed with admiration the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford. He was right in everything he said. He was particularly right in his prediction that today there would be much repetition. I shall add force to his forecast.
There is a simple issue that has to be determined at the Second Reading of the Bill. It is tempting to range over the failures of government or others to exercise their responsibilities last year. There are two issues: first, does the Animal Health Act 1981 need to be amended; and, secondly, if it needs to be amended, is this the right kind of Bill and is the timing right?
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will be relieved to hear that I support him on one or two measures. I agree, as every other speaker so far has agreed, that the Animal Health Act 1981 is defective, has been proved to be defective and needs to be amended. That is the purpose of this Bill. So we are agreed that at some stage something must be done about it. But the issue—this is where repetition becomes inevitable—is whether this is the right Bill and is the timing right? My answer to that—this point was made by other noble Lords—is that this cannot possibly be the right Bill. Until one knows what problems one is trying to address—one will not know that until one has had some feedback from the three different inquiries—one cannot have the right Bill. So the timing cannot be right.
Let us continue to find the areas that we can agree on. In a Bill of this importance it is important to establish at least some common ground. I agree with the Minister that it would be irresponsible not to act on all the lessons which came out of the tragic affairs of last year. I agree that we must take all reasonable
precautionary measures to be better prepared next time. I further agree that many mistakes were made last year.The fundamental change in the first part of the Bill is that the requirement to justify slaughter of cattle moves from exposure—the cattle have been in the same field or have been close to an infected animal—to one where the Minister deems it necessary in order to prevent the disease. Hence the concept of contiguous cull. That is a measure which in certain circumstances needs to be put into a future Bill. The previous Act was found to be defective because in certain cases it was necessary to carry out a cull because it could be predicted that these animals were likely to be in the line of infection and therefore cause the disease to spread.
That raises the question: who is to determine what and how animals should be culled in these circumstances? The Minister justified the provisions of the Bill by his experience of what happened in north Yorkshire, and specifically in Thirsk. That is precisely why the Bill is inappropriate. Perhaps I can explain further. The reason the Yorkshire farmers, and indeed many others, exercised the right to appeal, which will exist until the Bill is passed, is that they fundamentally lacked confidence in the procedures put in place by MAFF and then by DEFRA.
By then they had had enough experience of the contiguous cull, as implemented from late March, to recognise that even if this was better scientific advice than that given in February and early March, by no stretch of the imagination could it be described as "best scientific advice". I remind noble Lords why it came in. It came in because the then Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was deemed by the chief scientific adviser to be making a poor job of dealing with the outbreak. There was a feeling that it was not implementing its own best practice, which had been propounded as a result of the BSE inquiry, and that things could be done better. That is clearly indisputable. The reason things were not being done well is that MAFF was not hitting its targets on slaughter, on disposal and on many other aspects about which we have already heard today.
Therefore, the mathematical modeller and epidemiologists and virologists were brought in. All can make a helpful contribution. It is most important to use models. But they must have the confidence of the man on the ground. They must always take into account the realities of animal health and of the situation that farmers recognise as being common sense on the ground. That is why in July farmers, having seen how the contiguous cull was working, had absolutely no reason to have any further confidence in it and why, not unnaturally, they resorted to law in order to stop what appeared to be an extraordinary poor practice from being perpetrated any further.
The reason was not because the mathematical model was introduced, but because the veterinary surgeon—the person who the farmer instinctively looks to for matters of animal health and for advice on local knowledge, on topography, on infection sources, on
species and all those other issues which must be taken into account—was sidelined. The model being promulgated was by no means sophisticated enough. For example, it could not distinguish between different strains of foot and mouth. The farmers recognised that these issues were not being addressed. Therefore, because the veterinary profession had been sidelined, not just on the ground but in the ministry itself, there was a total and utter suspension of belief that DEFRA would do any better than MAFF.That is why the Bill is the wrong Bill at the wrong time. One cannot simply say as part of a social contract that, "Yes, the Government got it wrong" and "Yes, there are a lot of lessons to learn" but there is only one lesson that we are going to learn at this moment; that is, that you cannot resort to law even if we are doing a bad job. That, on the face of it, appears to everyone to be a totally unreasonable bargain. That is why this is a bad Bill. The Secretary of State has not understood her obligation to demonstrate to farmers and, indeed, her responsibility to the veterinary profession. Its members have been badly let down by no longer being required to do what they were able to do in 1967, which is to put an uncertain case through a laboratory test—meanwhile ensuring that animals were properly isolated—and return with a professionally justified diagnosis.
The diagnoses which were required after the middle of March really amounted in large measure to guessing. One either had to deem that the animal was free of disease or that there was reason for suspicion. That was a retrograde step compared with what happened in previous outbreaks. It puts a veterinary practitioner in an ethically impossible position—to be told that he cannot go for the option of isolation and a test.
The culls can and should be justified but they must be recognised as appropriate for the circumstances. It may be that the protocols that we are now seeing will try to address these issues. But we will not have any confidence in these protocols either unless at the end of the day the advice that will ultimately rule is not just the advice of epidemiologists—that is very important—or of virologists, and certainly not the advice of officials in the ministry, but ultimately advice which the veterinary surgeon on the ground can also support.
6.19 p.m.
The Earl of Shrewsbury: My Lords, I declare an interest as a farmer and as a flock master of pedigree sheep. I agree entirely with everything said today by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford in a most eloquent and first-class speech.
The area in which I live was right at the centre of the local foot and mouth epidemic. Some 58 farms were taken out. Many of my neighbours had their stock taken. I was extremely fortunate to escape with my flock intact. I say fortunate because the flock survived and I have been able to keep my bloodlines going, bloodlines which have taken a number of years to
develop and improve. But I was not so fortunate in another way, as I find it almost impossible to sell my stock. Because of the necessary restrictions on stock movements, and the fact that there have been no agricultural shows where farm stock can be shown and no livestock auction marts, I have in the past 12 months sold four ram lambs and two shearling rams. In a normal year, I would sell at least 30 ram lambs, 10 shearling rams, 20 shearling ewes and a few culls.Agricultural shows are the pedigree breeders' shop window. Without them, we are all severely restricted in reaching our potential customers. Can the Minister provide any information as to whether sheep will be allowed to be put forward at agricultural shows this year, and if so from when? A further problem with showing pedigree sheep post-FMD is the introduction of a 20-day standstill period. As it stands, I understand that if showing is allowed and I take stock to the Shropshire and West Midland Show and bring them home, I have to isolate those animals on my farm on return and cannot move them for 21 days. I may wish to show the same animals at the Stafford County Show two weeks later, but I cannot, as that contravenes the 21-day period.
Will the Minister please reconsider both the standstill period and the licensing regime for movements where it affects stock used for the purpose of showing? That is a major market place, and it would greatly help the sheep industry in their marketing of stock.
I wholeheartedly support the second part of the Bill in its purpose to try to eradicate scrapie over time. That is both welcome and necessary if we are to rebuild confidence in British farm produce both here and abroad. I applaud the Government on their initiative to introduce a national scrapie plan for Great Britain. Like the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, I am concerned about cross-border problems. It would be only sensible also to introduce the national scrapie plan in Scotland, which is a great country for the breeding of sheep.
Like many others in the pedigree breeding world, I have registered my flock and my willingness to have it tested and to take action voluntarily. In the main, my sheep are tested ARR and ARQ, as I have been testing for a few years and have eradicated genetically suspect sheep whenever they have appeared. It is absolutely vital that British agriculture improves its stock, practices and marketing, with full traceability and both genetic and veterinary advances being implemented. Never again must we allow the industry to fall to the depths which we have been experiencing during the past few years. It will take a long while to rebuild British agriculture's reputation as the world leader. Thousands of people are leaving the land thoroughly disillusioned with working in an unprofitable industry unloved by the Government.
While I fully understand and agree that action must be taken to prevent another catastrophic epidemic like FMD, the Government want to go far too far, far too soon, pre-judging the results of the inquiries and the consultation process. The Government should not act
until that advice has been received and thoroughly digested, and further advice taken. Unless some hyperactive spin doctoring takes place, any inquiry can only be sufficiently fair to lay a considerable amount of blame firmly at the door of the former MAFF, DEFRA and the Government.There has been a chapter of disasters and massive errors. However, the Government owe a serious debt of gratitude to the local employees of MAFF and DEFRA, the Army and the local veterinarians, slaughtermen and many others who have been involved at the frontline of the battle. Theirs has been an horrific task, and they have done their best. Ministers have not been helpful, and nor has the hierarchy at MAFF—now DEFRA. The story at higher levels is not encouraging, and the Government should accept blame where necessary and learn the lessons, rather than continue to blame the farming community in a scattergun approach to polish political halos.
Finally, I understand from the farming press that the Government may intend to introduce a licensing system for farmers, whereby a farmer has to submit his farming plan to DEFRA for approval before being allowed to farm his land under licence. If DEFRA should disapprove, the farmer would be denied a licence. Who is more qualified to judge how a farmer should farm the land—a civil servant behind a desk in London or the farmer whose family have farmed that land and the stock on it for generations and who has hands-on knowledge of good husbandry practices? Quite frankly, that proposal is absurd. Such a system would be intolerable and I sincerely hope that what I have read is pure rumour. Perhaps the Minister will be able to assure your Lordships that that will not be the case.
British agriculture is in urgent need of strong encouragement, support, good sound advice and action, not knee-jerk legislation. Those of us who were involved in the two knee-jerk Acts regarding hand guns—I must say from two different Governments—know that knee-jerk reaction legislation achieves absolutely nothing. The Bill will achieve little except to drive a further wedge between the agricultural community and the Government.
6.25 p.m.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I also declare an interest, as I own three breeds of sheep, one being classified as a rare breed. I also breed ponies and own dogs and cats. The Bill covers a variety of animals and diseases. I shall speak to the concerns of some people who own rare breeds, but, first, I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. I hope that the Government realise how strong feeling is about the Bill.
The Government are putting the cart before the horse. I wonder whether the Minister will be able to give the House a satisfactory answer about why the Bill is being rushed through Parliament before Dr Iain
Anderson's "lessons learned" inquiry and the Royal Society inquiry into infectious diseases of livestock chaired by Sir Brian Follett are to report.This Animal Health Bill is more like an animal extermination Bill. It contains draconian powers. Would it not have been scientifically wise to hear the independent inquiries' findings? The membership of the committee includes veterinary scientists, virologists and epidemiologists, together with representatives of farming and consumer groups. The inquiry will identify lessons to be learnt from recent outbreaks of infectious diseases such as foot and mouth disease and swine fever, and will hopefully help the UK to be better prepared for future occurrences. The committee will also consider issues relating to the provision and use of scientific advice.
Many of the interested stakeholders have lost confidence. To get the brains of sheep muddled up with those of cattle was a most unscientific blunder. Not to mark specimens clearly, whatever they are, is totally incompetent. Should not the Government be trying to build bridges, instead of forging ahead without the scientific evidence that we so badly need? Sir Brian Follett said:
- "These infectious diseases can cause epidemics that result in tremendous distress and suffering for both animals and people".
I should like to ask the Minister how much research is being done to find quick and efficient tests so that animals do not have to be wasted in contiguous culling. What progress has been made on a vaccine for foot and mouth disease, so that diseased animals can be identified from those with vaccine antibodies?
There is great concern that meat imported legally or illegally to this country may bring in disease yet again. It seems only fair to all those people who suffered so much heartbreak as well as financial disaster to know the true source of the infection that caused so much damage. Is there a cover-up? I hope that, in the end, the true scientific source will be made public.
Rare breeds are part of our heritage. On Wednesday 21st November, I asked a supplementary question to a Question on the Animal Health Bill and scrapie in some genetically susceptible rare breeds. I was grateful to the Minister, who wrote to me on 4th December 2001. He said that the Bill required the Minister to consider whether there were exceptional circumstances that justify an exemption from restrictions on breeding from genetically susceptible sheep. That was in Section 36C(2), as proposed in Schedule 2 of the Bill.
There is a great need for breeders, researchers and Government to work together to find a way to increase resistance to transmissible spongiform encephalopathies. There is much to learn, and I was pleased that the Minister said that the Government would work with breed societies to agree realistic timetables for breeding in resistance to TSEs and that
there might be exceptional circumstances. The Rare Breeds Survival Trust recognises that breeding TSE-resistance in the national flock is an effective long-term means of ensuring that BSE does not occur. The science behind any such programme should be sound.It is not known how many varieties of scrapie there are. It has been said that there might be as many as 20. It is a technical matter and needs urgent research and sound conclusions. If we eliminate one strain of scrapie, sheep might be more susceptible to another. Eradicating TSEs in sheep is not compatible with the commitments made to the Rio convention. The science on which the policy is based is yet to be substantiated, so I hope that the Minister can give a commitment today that research will be stepped up and that all interested parties will be kept informed.
The Rare Breeds Survival Trust seeks to secure the strength of all appeal procedures for rare breeds in the future event of a government exercising the right to slaughter or remove animals from breeding in a disease crisis. The trust would like to see that written into Section 36D of the Act. It would be feasible under the proposed Section 36D(7) and should be administered by an independent body.
In the recent foot and mouth epidemic, many people became frustrated and lost confidence when they were passed between different branches of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and told different things. It was difficult for vets, farmers and DEFRA staff, and I hope that such situations will not arise again. However, for many people, the future is still shrouded in uncertainty.
I hope that we will be able to improve the Bill, as it passes through its stages in your Lordships' House. At the moment, the Bill denies the right to natural justice, giving the Minister the power to order slaughter solely on the basis of what he thinks, without any explanation, justification or recourse to appeal for the owner of the animals.
6.33 p.m.
Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, I must declare an interest as a small sheep farmer. My flock is more akin to that of Marie-Antoinette than to that of the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, but, like other farmers throughout the country, I have spent the past year in considerable trepidation. Fortunately, I escaped what happened to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and others.
As the Minister sits in some isolation on the Front Bench during the debate—feeling rather lonely, no doubt—can he begin to imagine how increasingly lonely some of us on the Back Benches have felt in the past year when we had to look the farming community in the eye and try to tell farmers that the Government were not anti-farming? The provisions in the Bill will make that task even more difficult.
I am grateful to the Minister for his impassioned and eloquent explanation of the reasoning behind the provisions, and I understand why his department wants the Bill. It seems that the Animal Health Act 1981 provides no legal basis on which a government
can order the slaughter of animals that are neither infected nor dangerous contacts. The contiguous cull, which was a major part of the Government's strategy in the recent outbreak, and the proposed firebreak culling had no legal basis. My memory may play me false, but I can remember no stage in the many debates that we had in the House during the crisis at which any Minister mentioned that lacuna in the powers that they sought to exercise. If there is a good, sound reason, based on the best scientific and veterinary advice that such a step is necessary, the authorities may, I accept, need to have available to them the power to implement it, if a political decision is taken to combat animal disease with a slaughter policy. I shall return to the question of whether such a political decision can ever be made again.The Bill has been introduced in a way that goes far beyond what the Minister suggested were the necessary reasons. It gives virtually unlimited powers, providing DEFRA officials with, in effect, carte blanche to order slaughter without any requirement that they publicly justify, explain, give reasons, provide a fair hearing or, in some circumstances, compensate properly those whose animals are destroyed.
Some of us have said for some time that we hoped that there could be a department for rural affairs. We welcomed the formation of DEFRA and hoped that the criticisms that were validly made about the way in which the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food operated would not be appropriate to the new department. Above all, we hoped that DEFRA would, in time, rebuild and command the confidence of the farming community. Many of us in this Chamber had close contact with that community during the recent crisis.
It is difficult to overstate the traumatic effects on stockmen, their wives and their children and on the communities in the areas that were affected. One message came back repeatedly, however. There was a common sense of powerlessness and frustration in the face of the authorities, not the people who came to the farm, but faceless people taking decisions far away in offices and in MAFF itself. The decisions taken seemed to show no understanding of the consequences for those who faced the slaughter of treasured stock and the spectacle of piles of carcasses in the back yard for days, or even longer. Others had to face restrictions on even the limited movement that would have allowed them to alleviate the suffering of animals in dreadful welfare conditions.
The first Bill introduced by the new department not only gives the authorities blanket powers of further slaughter but imposes criminal and financial sanctions on farmers who do not assist in that slaughter. That is a bad way in which to rebuild the confidence that British agriculture must have in its government.
The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, made a point about the timing of the Bill. It is extraordinary that the Government should introduce such a wide-ranging Bill without any formal consultation with the farming industry on Parts 1 or 3. The decision to
introduce the Bill before the results, at least, of the Government's scientific inquiry—whose report and recommendations should be available in the summer—smacks of a return to the bad old days of arrogance and lack of consideration for the industry.If the Bill is to be based on good science, surely we must hear from the scientists first. If it really is so urgent to provide additional powers for contiguous culling in the event—heaven forfend—of a further foot and mouth outbreak in the near future, let the Bill be narrowed to foot and mouth susceptible animals. Let it be restricted to circumstances in which such a cull is judged to be clearly necessary by the best possible veterinary and scientific advice, when those who are on the receiving end are given proper notice of what is to be done, are enabled to have a proper hearing and to challenge, albeit speedily, the reason for what is proposed.
The progress of the Bill up until today is also something which should give all of us in Parliament, particularly those of us in this House, cause for concern. Last week there was much debate about the future of the House both here and in another place. The general public are under the impression that each piece of legislation proposed by the Government is scrutinised by both Houses of Parliament. But they are wrong and this Bill is a clear illustration. Not only were no amendments of any kind made to the Bill during the whole of its passage through the Commons—which presumably indicates either that the Government majority prevented any such amendment being made or that the Bill is considered to be perfect—but, because of timetabling in the Commons, important parts of the Bill to which amendments had been tabled were not debated at all.
I would be the last person to suggest that there should not be timetabling or to suggest to the other place how it should conduct its business. If people want to arrange their business so that they can return to their husbands and wives and the cat on the hearth, that is fine, but it should not be at the expense of proper scrutiny of legislation. If Bills are sent to this House in that way, surely there must come a time when we in this House start to say, "We will not consider that Bill or that part of it".
I urge the Minister in this House, because this is the one place where such legislation can expect proper scrutiny, to take the initiative to take the Bill away, if necessary to delay the Committee stage, and to return with his own amendments which reflect concerns which have in this debate been voiced by Members on all sides. Concerns come from organisations as diverse as the veterinary profession, which has strong objections to what is proposed yet is key to its effective working. It has been expressed by people ranging from members of the Kennel Club to the British Horse Society, not just those involved with the rare breeds which the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, mentioned.
In the other place, amendments were foreshadowed even by the Minister's colleague, Mr Morley. In this House, the Minister told us that there will be consultation on a protocol on the use of the slaughter
powers. Surely we must see the protocol before we give the Government the powers. How can we possibly do it the other way round? Indeed, it seems to me that the protocol—the way in which the powers are to be exercised—should ideally appear on the face of the Bill. How else can we know what we are authorising the authorities to do?As other noble Lords have said, there must also be a proper independent right of appeal. One cannot have, as the Bill proposes, an appeal to the very person who sent the inspector out in the first place. That is not sufficient. Why should there be a reversed burden of proof on compensation? If, as we are told by the Minister, a small number of farmers fail the bio-diversity test, it must be right to penalise them. I would have no objection to that, but to penalise everyone seems to me to be the wrong way round.
I echo the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson: who is to make such assessments? As the president of the Royal Veterinary College said to a number of us who attended a meeting in this House last week, if it is to be the veterinary surgeon who has just told the farmer that his stock is to be slaughtered and is then required to go on to tell him, in effect, "It's all your fault", that is not a role which many young vets are equipped for or could possibly be expected to undertake.
Applications to magistrates on powers of entry must include notice and a right to either appear or be represented. Ex parte applications simply will not do, for the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson. The need for urgency for such culling—and we are dealing with stock which is neither infected nor dangerous contact—cannot justify overriding the right to a fair hearing. Very short notice hearings can be arranged at which notice is given to both sides. Above all, a farmer must be entitled to have reasons for the actions given in writing and in advance of the slaughter.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, spoke about scrapie. Surely it must be a matter of concern to the Government that the president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons says that the science is not sufficiently developed for us to be able to say that it is right to slaughter certain genotypes. He told those of us who attended the meeting that there was a real danger that if we went down the path of compulsory slaughter we might inadvertently be destroying the very genotypes which have greater resistance to this and to other diseases.
The Minister said that those powers were to be taken further down the line, so I ask simply: why are we taking them now? The voluntary scrapie eradication scheme has bearly started and most farmers are nowhere near as advanced as the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury. However, most pedigree breeders are willing, and many of them are anxious, to sign up to the scheme. Surely the Bill ought to contain provisions which encourage joining in that voluntary scheme. If at a later stage when the science proves it is necessary that the power of compulsory slaughter is required,
those matters can be brought back before Parliament and the authorities can be given the necessary authority.Underlying the tone and the approaches in the Bill is a matter which I find most disquieting. It is in a sense unstated. It is a feeling that the responsibility for foot and mouth disease lies with the farmers of England and Wales—I exclude Scotland for the reasons, rather artificial, which have been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. Let us face the fact that it is not poor biosecurity on Britain's farms or resistance to culling which caused the national disaster which we are just getting over. So far as we can tell, and according to all the material that is in the public domain, the primary causes of foot and mouth arise outside this country.
Foot and mouth disease did not originate here. It started—let us face it squarely—because the Government's own biosecurity was inadequate. The disease entered this country because the restrictions had failed. Yet the Bill contains no provisions whatever to tighten import controls, to increase sanctions, or to bring us more into line with countries such as the United States, Australia and New Zealand, to which the right reverend Prelate referred in a remarkable speech. Why not? The Minister said that the Bill was intended to provide a full armoury of weapons. It seems to me a great pity that all the weapons which he seeks to take are aimed at the farmers and not at the disease itself.
I conclude with an issue that was foreshadowed by what was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe. It is for me the most disappointing aspect of the proposed legislation. It underlies my concern that out of all that has happened in the past year the most important lesson of all has not been learnt. The Government are proposing the legislation in anticipation of a possible future occasion when a mass slaughter policy may be considered to deal with animal disease. The last outbreak brought the rural community in this country to its knees. It brought many families to a state of despair and many farming families to a position in which they were on the verge of open defiance of the law. I do not believe that they or the wider public will stand for a similar policy in the future.
It was done from the best possible motive: to rid the country of foot and mouth disease. But the reality, shown night after night on television, was an obscenity. If our scientists, vets and skilled politicians cannot provide better solutions to animal disease than our medieval forefathers had available to them, and if this Bill is passed and ever used, it and they will have failed all of us.
6.50 p.m.
Earl Peel: My Lords, it is, as always, an enormous pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu. She gave a thorough scrutiny of the Bill. The Minister would do well to pay close attention to what the noble Baroness and one of his own Back-Benchers has said.
I declare an interest in that I own land in the north of England—land which, I am glad to say, was not affected by foot and mouth disease.In opening, the Minister said how much the Bill reflects his personal experience. I understand that. I have no doubt that over this past, ghastly year the noble Lord and many of his colleagues have undergone unpleasant experiences and witnessed some fairly distraught circumstances. We all have. But a Bill of this nature is not the sole prerogative of a Government Minister or his department. Many others—the vets, hauliers and slaughtermen—have shared with him and his department the experiences of the past year or so. Rural businesses have suffered greatly, as have the farmers. For that reason I regret deeply that they have not had the opportunity to participate in and consult on the Bill. If they had, I am certain that we would have a very different Bill before us today.
Like most people in the countryside, I am astonished that the Government did not decide on a public inquiry; and, furthermore, that they have not waited for the results of their inquiries which undoubtedly will bring forward suggestions for future legislation. Does that mean that the Government will again make time for more legislation? Furthermore, I am informed that the European Union is proposing legislation. Shall we then have a third Bill to deal with these matters? I hope that the Government can give some answers to these practical matters.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, rightly referred to Scotland. I read in another news release issued recently by the department in connection with the Bill that in its wisdom the Scottish Executive has decided not to legislate until it has consulted fully. If the Scottish Executive can decide that, why cannot the Government of Westminster do the same? I put to the Minister the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. Is it practical to have two different types of legislation, one north and the other south of the Border? I do not believe so.
No one will disagree that the Government need the relevant powers to reduce and bring under control outbreaks of any disease. The two words "urgency" and "purpose" are paramount. If those two principles had been adhered to at the outset and if, as the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, rightly said, the Government had brought in the Army a little earlier with a brigadier rather than a civil servant in charge, I am certain that much of the tragedy that we have witnessed over the past year would not have occurred.
The Bill has what I describe as an aura of arrogance about it which has dumbfounded the agricultural world. The blame is being put firmly at the door of the farmer. That seems sad. If properly constructed, the Bill could have crossed through party political divide. As the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu said, this is DEFRA'S first Bill. What a shame that it is dividing rather than uniting everyone in the countryside.
I am sorry to be repetitive but it is inevitable. I wish to comment on the impacts of Clauses 1 and 7. It is unreasonable that the officials can be provided with the enormous powers which the Bill gives them, yet the farmer, in his or her defence, has no access to a justice of the peace or magistrate. The point has been well made by other noble Lords; I do not wish to go on about it. However, it is a fundamental flaw in the Bill.
In another place, Mr Morley states in his paper on the implementation of new slaughter powers that judicial review will continue to be available. So what? It is not much use after one's stock has been killed. I do not regard that as being a sufficient recourse to law for farmers.
The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, referred to this issue. I find it objectionable that, having entered a property with the intention of killing the livestock, the inspector can then require any person to give assistance. Calling upon a distraught farmer, his wife, daughter or son is not on. I am sure the Minister will tell us that that will not happen; but it is in the legislation. We have to amend that provision at a later stage.
The question of compensation has been well covered. When there have been so few cases in which biosecurity measures have been transgressed, to reverse the onus of proof against the farmer thus ensuring that he receives only 75 per cent instead of 100 per cent must be wrong. Having said that, I have every sympathy with the Government if they have come down very hard, as I hope that they have done, on those farmers who have acted irresponsibly with regard to biosecurity measures or have been deliberately obstructive. I know that there have been a few such cases. They need to be dealt with severely so that the farming fraternity is in no doubt that in the future such actions will be treated very harshly. But there are very few cases. I believe that the Government have the compensation formula completely wrong.
Everyone will agree that effective biosecurity measures remain the key to preventing the spread of disease. In its brief, the National Farmers Union rightly points out that the Government need to provide clear advice to farmers in order to establish a benchmark against which an inspector can assess accurately the extent to which a farmer is in breach of the biosecurity rules and his compensation payment compromised. Of course, many biosecurity conditions will be common throughout but local conditions will result in different instructions, and I hope that those will be taken into account when the government inspector is assessing whether a farmer is due his full compensation.
In his paper on the implementation of new slaughter powers, to which I referred earlier in my remarks, the Minister, Mr Morley, states that:
- "The instructions will be widely published, giving as much information as possible to farmers. The risk of any surprise occurring on an individual farm will be significantly minimised and that in turn should reduce the need for unnecessary or ill-informed challenges".
One of the greatest bones of contention throughout the whole of the ghastly foot and mouth affair has been the question of how many animals that had not in fact contracted the disease were slaughtered. Figures of up to 85 per cent have been mentioned. We all know about the cost in human suffering, while the cost to the Treasury has been enormous. Surely the top priority from now on must be to ensure that a system of fast and accurate diagnosis is put in place in order to prevent this from happening again.
I gather that successful scientific research into a fast and accurate means of diagnosis for foot and mouth disease is not far away. Can the Minister tell the House whether that is the case and whether he feels that sufficient funding has been made available to ensure that no unnecessary delays are taking place, so that progress can be made as quickly as possible? Furthermore, does the Minister agree that the Bill should take into account the fact that when such a system of diagnosis is in place, it should be the right of anyone owning animals which have been threatened with a cull to be given access to such information beforehand? I hope that the Minister will agree that such an amendment to the Bill would be desirable.
I have many other objections to the Bill which have been mentioned by other speakers, but the point that both the agricultural industry and consumer groups should be given a clear explanation of what the Government intend to do to tighten up on imports is, in my view, absolutely essential. Generally speaking, however, a crisis such as the one that rural Britain has had to face over the past year brings people together. It forms a union. Having undergone such hardship, those with differing views are more willing to co-operate and seek a compromise for the common good. However, despite almost a year of enduring one of the worst crises to hit rural Britain, from which communities are still reeling and are likely to do so for a long time to come, with this Bill—which has been brought forward at a most sensitive time—the Government have managed to alienate virtually every farming and rural representative body, including the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. At the very least that is disappointing and I would suggest that some serious rethinking is necessary.
Ultimately, the Government can legislate as much as they want, but unless a well-thought through and properly co-ordinated set of procedures, adequately funded and supported by sufficient numbers of personnel and expertise, which are thoroughly understood and respected by all parties, is brought forward, then quite frankly the Bill will fail. That will require co-operation and input from all sides. The problem will not be solved by implementing rushed legislation that will alienate the very people who are in a position to bring that about.
7.4 p.m.
Lord Moran: My Lords, first, I should declare an interest in that my wife has a small herd of pedigree Welsh black cattle. We live in Wales where in the early part of last year foot and mouth disease swirled around us, but miraculously they survived untouched.
We have before us another rushed piece of legislation which, despite the many critical voices raised against it in the Commons, has been sent to this House without any amendment. It has been subjected to quite inadequate scrutiny, as was pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, in her contribution. As so many other noble Lords have observed in some notable speeches, the legislation appears deeply flawed. In particular I thought that the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford and the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, pointed out those flaws in the clearest terms. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, questioned the Title of the Bill. I thought it should be called the "Animal Slaughter Facilitation Bill" because that seemed far more accurate.
Until now, no formal consultation has been carried out, at any rate on Part 1, while at least a dozen veterinary, livestock and farming organisations have expressed their serious concerns. Only the NFU rather inexplicably welcomed the Bill. A notable expression of concern was contained in a letter from Roger Green, the president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, published on 11th December in the Daily Telegraph. Commenting on the excuse of urgency put forward by Ministers, Dr Green said that no positive blood tests had been taken since 30th September. He went on to say that,
- "Slaughter being extended to all animals on premises designated by a computer because they are deemed 'contiguous' gives considerable problems to veterinary surgeons. They have been and could be instructed to kill animals without any good scientific or clinical reasons".
- "no scientific definition of 'contiguous' in the Bill",
- "a course of action likely to antagonise the main people [the Government] need to assist in any disease control: the farmers".
Even more serious is the question why the Bill has been brought forward before the three inquiries set up by the Government have had an opportunity to report. That is really quite extraordinary. What is the point of setting up inquiries if legislation is then brought forward without waiting to see what are the results of those conclusions? What do the Government propose to do when the three inquiries report? Will they simply ignore their conclusions?
The legal basis for the slaughter last year of all those thousands of animals was the Animal Health Act 1981. Schedule 3 to the Act states:
- "The Minister may, if he thinks fit, in any case cause to be slaughtered—
- (a) any animals affected with foot-and-mouth disease, or suspected of being so affected; and
- (b) any animals which are or have been in the same field, shed, or any other place, or in the same herd or flock, or otherwise in contact with animals infected with foot-and-mouth disease, or which appear to the Minister to have been in any way exposed to the infection of foot-and-mouth disease".
No doubt the 1981 Act now needs to be amended and brought up to date, but the way that the Government propose to do it is extraordinary. They have begun by saying that slaughter may be authorised whenever it is necessary for disease control reasons. In saying that, they imply acceptance that a good deal of what they were doing last year was not within the law.
The mechanism proposed in the law for authorising slaughter is draconian to a degree. I understand that it applies to all animals, not only cows, pigs and sheep, but also to horses, dogs, cats, zoo animals and hamsters. All that is needed is an application by an official, who need not attend in person, to a single JP without the farmer having any right to be present. I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, criticised that. Citizens are to be deprived of their legal right to challenge the killing of their animals; it makes demonstrating against an inspector's actions an offence; and for the first time in this country, makes it a criminal offence, punishable by up to six months in prison, for anyone to refuse to assist an inspector in killing an animal. Your Lordships and I could be having a cup of tea with a farmer and, when the slaughter team arrives and we are asked to, say, hold a sheep while it is killed, and we say that we will not do this, we are guilty of a criminal offence.
Instead of receiving full compensation when their animals are killed, farmers are to be given 75 per cent with a further 25 per cent some time later if they are judged to have operated proper biosecurity arrangements. In other words, all farmers are to be judged guilty of not operating proper biosecurity arrangements until it is proved otherwise. All these provisions do seem more appropriate to a Stalinist regime than to our country.
Part 2 of the Bill deals with scrapie. This fatal disease has been with us for many years and is not transmitted to humans. It is not unreasonable for the Government to seek to eradicate it, as they are trying to do in the national scrapie plan. But the president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has pointed out that in this part of the Bill,
- "many unsupported scientific judgements are made".
It has been argued by the director of Rare Breeds International that this part of the Bill is based on bad science and, as it stands, might result in the elimination of many old established sheep breeds, such as Beatrix Potter's Herdwicks, hill Radnors, British milk sheep, Shetlands and others. But those entitled to know point out that some genotypes which DEFRA is seeking to remove have beneficial characteristics, while the genotype they seek to preserve because it is thought to be resistant to scrapie may not in fact be so but only masking a long incubation scrapie. I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, said in that respect.
There is, as yet, no general agreement on the science, and it would surely be wrong at this stage to give DEFRA powers to put an end to many old established and historic breeds in direct contravention of the Convention on Biological Diversity. It is, in my view, far too early to try to deal through legislation with the problem of scrapie. We simply do not yet know enough about it.
I am astonished that a Bill of this kind should have been put forward at this time. I was myself a public servant for 40 years. In my day, in each department, a Permanent Secretary, experienced and sagacious, ensured that his or her department was properly run, that any rash proposals from below were shot down and that any unwise proposals by Ministers were tactfully resisted. I cannot understand how the Permanent Secretary in DEFRA could have agreed, if he did agree, to this Bill going forward when it did.
The Government's tendency to try to put all the blame on farmers seems to me extremely unfortunate. I very much agree with Mr Malcolm Bruce, the Liberal Democrat spokesman on environment, food and rural affairs, when he said:
- "There are times when this government seems hell bent on alienating every farmer in the land, when instead they should be working out common solutions to common problems".
In the meantime, perhaps, after all these months, the Government will at last take steps to tighten up controls on the import of meat. After all we have endured in these past 12 months, why on earth do we not have the strict controls that the United States and Australia have always had? Why do we allow anyone to bring in meat on an aeroplane "for personal use"? Why do the Government seek to duck responsibility by saying that these are matters for the EU? It seems to me scandalous that the Government do nothing about this, so that we run the risk of again importing this terrible disease. Instead of seeking retribution on the farmers who had the temerity to go to court to protect their property, the Government should remedy their own failure to protect the country from infection from abroad, and they should do it now. The statement by DEFRA, reported in today's Daily Telegraph, that it remained almost powerless to prevent people from bringing contaminated food into this country, seems pathetically feeble.
I welcome the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. The only thing that worries me about it is that it uses the word "regret", which seems very mild. I feel much more that it is not simply a matter of "regretting" that the Government have not waited for the Royal Society's report; I believe that they should definitely do so. I had it in mind to table an amendment to give the Bill a Second Reading but to say that the House resolved that further consideration of the Bill should take place only after the recommendations of the Royal Society and the other inquiries commissioned by the Government were available and had been considered and published. Unfortunately, it took me a long time to come to this conclusion and I was advised that it was too late to table such an amendment. I intend to pursue this objective—I understand that there are other ways in which I can do so later on—and I hope that that course will be generally supported.
7.15 p.m.
Lord Kimball: My Lords, I declare an interest as an honorary associate of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, as chairman of the Cambridge University Veterinary Trust, as deputy president of the Countryside Alliance and as a small sheep farmer.
The Countryside Alliance is concerned that the Government have introduced the Bill before receiving any benefit from the three independent inquiries into foot and mouth. I echo the concern expressed by the president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, who said in a letter to the Daily Telegraph that it is a hasty and ill-conceived measure. I also agree with my noble friend Lord Selborne about it being necessary to take into account the local conditions, locations, topography, local climate and the siting of farm buildings in relation to roads.
It is important that we should make much more use of the people employed within the government veterinary service who have local knowledge. In that way, at least the farmers will give a high level of compliance because they know that these are the kind of people they can trust.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Palmer about the problem of Scotland. We should think what would again happen if there were to be another cross-border situation, as happened with Cumberland and Dumfries.
However, surely the most important thing for all of us is to be absolutely certain that the disease cannot come back into this country ever again. I do not see why we should allow ourselves to have less stringent regulations than other countries. It is absolutely essential that these matters should be improved. The NFU has, quite rightly, suggested that there should be a statutory duty on the Government to provide an annual report to Parliament on what steps should be taken to stop foot and mouth or swine fever again coming back into this country. After what was said in another place, I hope that the Minister will look very carefully at the undertakings that were given there about greater restrictions on people coming into this country.
There is no question that the Bill will allow for the slaughter of horses, dogs and pets. The awful thing is that there would be no right of appeal if it is implemented. Some noble Lords will remember the sadness and worry when the "remount officers" came round the stables in 1939 and took away our hunters and hill ponies. I have, as a matter of historical record, a letter to my mother from the veterinary practice in Oakham confirming that all the big dogs—the setters and Labradors—had been put down at the start of the war to save food. That was a real emergency; this is not such an emergency.
We do not seem to know very much about the actual position regarding scrapie in sheep. There have been serious misgivings about the need to cull them. I hope that we shall bear in mind that scrapie affects some sheep in entirely different ways than is the case with other sheep. Different breeds and different individuals have different susceptibilities to scrapie. But what is the cut-off point? There is no evidence to suggest that scrapie is linked to BSE in cattle. It is important to maintain the diversity of our sheep flock in this country.
This Bill is premature; it lacks justification; it is unnecessary; and it is based on unproven assumptions. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, that this Bill should not go forward.
7.20 p.m.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, when one is dealing with a pernicious little Bill at this stage of its proceedings, there is very little new to say. We have heard some extraordinarily good speeches. The contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, was especially good, and that from my noble friend Lord Jopling was excellent. It contradicted much of what the Secretary of State in another place claimed to be fact. But perhaps the greatest speech was that made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford. I do not believe that I have heard such an acute, surgical dissection of government policy—and, indeed, condemnation of it—from the Bishops' Benches. I remember being criticised often by those Benches when serving as a Minister, but today's effort was rather better than anything that was directed at me.
I am very sad that DEFRA has followed the worst habits of MAFF. We are faced with a knee-jerk reaction and the need to over-legislate. We can compound that with the blaming of farmers for foot and mouth disease, and the bringing forward of a piece of legislation that is neither scientifically proven nor scientifically properly based. I find it most surprising that DEFRA now enjoys worse relations with the farming and rural community than MAFF managed to achieve. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, I had hoped that DEFRA would start off and mend many of the fences. However, the department has managed only to exacerbate the situation. It is making no great effort to try to mend the fences. This Bill is, perhaps, a very good example: there has been no
consultation with the rural industry. DEFRA appears to be frightened to hold a public inquiry into foot and mouth. As many speakers have said, that is perhaps because such an inquiry would reveal the true incompetence that existed within the department at that time.As many noble Lords have said, the Bill was rushed through another place—not only on a limited time-scale, but also with many of the amendments not called. The Government must find this House a particular irritant in that they are not able to steam roller us in the same way as applies in the other place.
I turn to the consultation paper that was issued last Friday. It was quite discourteous of the Government not to have informed the speakers in today's debate that the consultation paper would be issued on that day. To find out by chance at lunch-time today that the Government had issued such a paper that was very relevant to the Bill, but not to have been told about it, seems to me to be the height of bad manners. I hope that the Minister will ensure that his department never falls into the same trap again. I see that the Government Chief Whip is sitting on the Front Bench. I trust, therefore, that he will take note of my point.
The consultation paper is a help in that it reveals some of the Government's thinking, but I have difficulty in correlating it with the contents of the Bill. Let us take, for example, paragraph 20 of the consultation paper, which says:
- "Among other things, the notices will certify that the decision to slaughter has been taken in accordance with the published criteria for slaughter".
I turn, briefly, to "compensation", which is a dreadful word. The 1981 Act was totally wrong in its use of the word. It is a payment for the farmer's stock. There is no compensation for loss of livelihood, for loss of future earnings, or, indeed, for all the harassment that takes place when a slaughter policy is introduced on a farm. It is merely payment by taxpayers for the value of the stock. That is why the payment should be 100 per cent, not 75 per cent with a further 25 per cent to follow. I agree with my noble friend Lord Peel that a severe penalty should be imposed on irresponsible farmers, but that should be dealt with afterwards: one should get 100 per cent value for one's stock, as of right.
The Bill talks about inspectors and veterinary inspectors. There needs to be a clear definition of the involvement and role of both of them. It is vital for farmers who have come to know their local vet that such vets should be involved in any decision making. They should also be able to accompany the farmer to the Justice of the Peace if a warrant is needed. I believe that the local vet ought to have priority. These computer models are all very well. They can be extremely helpful; but so, too, can input from other
people. The local vet is fully aware of the conditions in the area. He probably knows the stock better than anyone else, except the farmer. His input is absolutely crucial and I hope that it will receive higher priority than all the words of advice from the other interests involved. Similarly, it is also the local vet who will know more about the biosecurity of the farm, which will vary from area to area. I trust that that, too, will be taken into account.The point about Scotland has been well aired, as has that regarding the representations of farmers to Justices of the Peace. However, one matter that I find particularly distressing is what I call, "Lord Whitty's press gang"; namely, as we heard from my noble friend Lord Jopling, the people who go to farms and coerce farmers, employees, visitors, and anyone else they see fit, into chasing cattle round and round a field and pushing them out on the road. Indeed, President Mugabe would be proud of bringing forward such legislation in Zimbabwe. The criminalisation of farmers in that way is, I believe, totally unacceptable.
The Bill before us reminds me very much of the homes Bill that was debated during the last Session, and for which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, had to answer. He did not have a single supporter on that occasion. I believe that it was to his credit—I have yet to be proved wrong—that the Bill never went further than a Second Reading. It was subsequently delayed and then the general election was announced. I hope that the noble Lord will show the same good sense with regard to this Bill and that he will tell his colleagues in another place, and in the department, that the Bill is not acceptable to this House unless it is reformed in a major way—preferably after the reports on the inquiries have been received.
7.28 p.m.
Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I rise to contribute to this Second Reading debate with some trepidation—growing up in inner-city Bradford and living in inner-city Islington as I do. Although a lifelong walker and sometime camper, I confess to being essentially an urban animal. It is because of this that I should like to make some comments.
Too often in the media and across the chattering classes the so-called "division" of urban versus the rural is played out. Frankly, I do not buy this artificial division. Taking a leaf from the book of my honourable friend in another place, Tony Banks, who also admitted to there being a paucity of farms down the Romford Road, I admit that, similarly, there are none in Archway. However, I shall make some observations.
Foot and mouth disease, BSE, scrapie and the other horrors that face the farming community are matters of concern to all of us. They are of interest to the town and country alike. This Bill is of concern to all of us as consumers and citizens, as well as to those in the farming business—an industry which everyone admits is under enormous pressure at present.
As a consumer, I want to be sure that the public health implications of the public policy that we are considering today are to the fore. Historically, BSE
and its aftermath does not fill consumers with confidence. The old MAFF in the years gone by was guilty of gross inaction—I hope that we have seen the end of that.It was horrifying to watch the suffering brought about by foot and mouth. It was ghastly to see the slaughter on our TV screens night after night. How much worse it was for those who lived near to those farms or whose animals were involved. There was enormous sympathy across the country for the suffering of our farmers.
The economic effect on the countryside has been devastating, and the knock-on effect has also been very bad for those who live in towns and cities which depend on visitors and tourists. London, Bath and Brighton have felt the knock-on effect of foot and mouth disease. As a result, first, of foot and mouth and then of the events of 11th September, London's hotels, taxi drivers and theatres are having a very tough time indeed—and they have no compensation.
Following on from BSE, foot and mouth disease has had a terrible effect on the UK's international reputation. This country does not have the reputation of being a clean and wholesome place to visit. Everyone has heard the stories of tourists wanting to know if food in the UK is safe to eat—in much the same way as you or I might ask whether the water is safe to drink elsewhere in the world. This is not the reputation that we want for the UK. It is a problem that affects all of us.
My support for the Bill is based on the need for the Government to be able to respond adequately to any future outbreak of foot and mouth or, indeed, any of the potentially devastating diseases. As has been indicated by the Minister in another place, safeguards clearly need to be put in place. My noble friend the Minister indicated that in his opening remarks.
It seems to me that the Bill is one part of a jigsaw that is being put in place to do several things. First, it will allow the Government to act swiftly if there is a need to do so. God willing, we all hope that such a case will not arise. During the awful days of foot and mouth, many Members on all sides of this House urged the Government to act rapidly.
There are also the inquiries that are taking place and which will report later. They will add to our knowledge and will propose the long-term strategies and changes that will be required. The Bill is a beginning, not an end.
I have not heard a word in this debate which adequately answers the points made by the Minister in his introduction about Thirsk, in North Yorkshire, and the difficulties that were faced there in bringing foot and mouth under control.
I fear that ordinary people will not understand why so many Members of this House are so opposed to taking decisions which might allow a disease such as foot and mouth to be brought more rapidly under control, and thereby prevent more animals being slaughtered.
I have enormous respect for the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, and bow to her great knowledge and experience in these issues. She made some excellent points about broad organisational and other matters which clearly need to be taken further. However, I am afraid that urging delay begs the question: are those who are urging delay prepared to risk a repeat of the events of last year? Are they prepared to take the chance, unlikely as it might be, of a repeat so soon?
As my noble friend the Minister said in his opening remarks, it was a matter of luck that foot and mouth did not spread further. I for one do not think that I am prepared to leave it to luck again. We have a duty to citizens and consumers to err on the side of caution. It takes only one farmer to be careless, obstructive or dishonest and not to obey the rules of biosecurity for a disaster to occur—and at present there are no proper powers to deal with breaches of biosecurity. Surely that cannot be right.
The Bill seeks to take us forward. It is part of the long-term changes that are necessary. I am sure that improvements will be made in its passage through this House—that is our job—but the Bill is necessary, and it is necessary now.
7.34 p.m.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, the Bill is so wrong, both in principle and in detail, that it astonishes me that the Government have persisted in bringing it forward. It seems to be completely friendless. It is not supported by any farmer I have spoken to or read about, the veterinary profession opposes it, as we have heard from many speakers, and none of the organisations whose submissions or comments I have read seems to support it either.
In a speech the other day on the future of this House, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, quoted the phrase of Lord Hailsham, "an elective dictatorship". She said:
- "I fear that for many of us that frightening phrase echoes with growing validity as we perceive what has happened to our Parliament".—[Official Report, 9/1/02; col. 572.]
Furthermore, the Minister does not have to give any reason or provide any scientific or veterinary explanation or justification for his decision. The Bill provides the ministry with so-called "inspectors". My noble friend Lord Ferrers queried who they may be, where they will come from and how they will be empowered. It gives the inspectors unfettered power of entry to premises. Who are they to be? So far as I can make out, they can be hauled off the streets, given ministry authority and a small amount of training,
fitted with a regulation pair of jackboots and can proceed to use the enormous power given to them under Part 3; namely, forcible entry into private property, with as many other jackboots as necessary, with the power to require the hapless farmer or agent to co-operate or be criminalised. There is no appeal against this "jackbootery", except post facto—after healthy animals have been slaughtered—and any opposition will constitute a criminal offence.It goes without saying that the warrant authorising such gross abuses of governmental powers will be issued without the victim being able to put his case to a magistrate. I thought that we had gone beyond the old Communist powers of "first, the verdict, then the trial"; but it seems not. Under these provisions, instead of being able to present his case to a judge at a fair and public hearing, when an inspector calls, a farmer's premises will be entered forcibly and his animals will be destroyed utterly needlessly. Unless he offers his full help and co-operation, he will become a criminal. Into the bargain, he will lose 25 per cent of the purchase price of his stock.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, said on the question of animals other than cattle, sheep and pigs that the Bill will not affect dogs, cats, hamsters, parrots or any other animals, but as the Bill stands it could do so. Am I alone in thinking that if some farmer is deemed to be obstreperous—an "awkward customer"—one of the inspectors, with a little brief authority, may say, "I'm sorry you've been so difficult about this cull. Your horse, dog or cat may be a carrier of the disease and I am afraid that we are going to have to slaughter that too"? That power is still in the Bill. I am sure that the Minister may bring forward government amendments to remove that uncertainty, but at present it is a distinct possibility.
We should not even contemplate giving the Government these kinds of powers. They already have a number of powers under the Animal Health Act 1981 which allow the ministry to slaughter, first, any animal affected by foot and mouth disease and, secondly, any animals which appear to it to have been exposed in any way to foot and mouth infection. It seems to me, with respect to my noble friend Lord Selborne, that that Act already provides the Minister with adequate powers to deal with any outbreak. If he has those powers, why is he asking for any more?
The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, asked a question to which I, too, should like an answer. Is the reason, or part of the reason, for the Bill that the contiguous cull as practised was not lawful? I can think of no other reason at the moment for bringing the Bill forward. Either DEFRA had the power to carry out the contiguous cull—in which case it does not need this Bill—or, if it did not have the power to carry out the cull, it was illegal, with all the consequences that flow from that. I hope that we shall get an answer to that question when the Minister winds up.
In any event, there is no scientific reason for the so-called contiguous or firebreak culls. There is no evidence that those culls made any difference to the outbreak. As the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, pointed
out, the contiguous cull policy meant that perfectly healthy animals were slaughtered for no good reason. The contiguous or firebreak cull was a novel concept that seemed to be invented by computer modellers with no veterinary training and no specialist knowledge of foot and mouth disease.I remind your Lordships of the scale of the contiguous cull, in which so many healthy animals were slaughtered. Of the 6 million animals slaughtered during the outbreak, 5 million were not infected or incubating the disease at the time of slaughter. Approximately 85 per cent of the animals slaughtered were perfectly healthy.
Further, the contiguous cull policy led to cruelty and abuse of power by DEFRA and the police. Can it be right for the police to break down the door of a remote farmhouse so that soldiers can move in and shoot pet animals in a bedroom? Can it be right for a young girl's pet goat to be slaughtered and left lying in the family drive? Can it be right for a land agent acting on behalf of elderly and sick clients, one of whom has since died, to be assaulted and arrested by the police? The gentleman has since been told that there is no case against him and his arrest was unlawful. He is considering suing the relevant police authority.
Those are but a few examples. There are many more, some of which we have heard this evening. What are those people doing, cloaked in a little brief authority, visiting fear, stress and humiliation on law-abiding citizens of this country? Is this the country that we are told is a beacon to the world—the country that the Prime Minister so recently boasted of as a power for good in the world?
What is the purpose of that senseless slaughter and abuse of power? Is it to protect the meat and export market sector of the agricultural economy? I cannot believe that that is so. As the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, pointed out, it is no longer tenable to consider the control of foot and mouth disease in the light of a cost benefit to agriculture, particularly in the crude and primitive way in which that was carried out last year. Who can forget the pictures of medieval pyres and of animals, tongues lolling, being lowered by chains into the flames or pushed by bulldozers into pits? Who can forget the massive cost to the national economy, as tourists cancelled in their millions, appalled that a country that they had hitherto regarded as civilised should sink to such depths?
The financial and social cost of the epidemic was horrendous and its effects are still with us. Theatres, youth hostels, restaurants, bed and breakfasts and hotels were all devastated because their supply of visitors was wrecked. The Cheltenham festival was cancelled, Rugby Union internationals were cancelled, the Royal Show was cancelled, Badminton was cancelled and point-to-pointing, racing and hunting were all cancelled.
The financial cost to the nation has been estimated at the low end at £2 billion and at the high end, by the Institute of Directors, at £20 billion. Yet the Government are asking us to authorise more of the same. There is no thought of another way as far as I
can see. There is no thought of vaccination—merely a bullet-headed demand to give more powers to the same people who made such a mess of things previously. The Government want us to give more powers to the same department that was on the point of ordering the wholesale cull of sheep in Britain, based on an experiment that used the wrong sort of brains.Why are we being asked to approve a Bill to allow such people to go blundering on, slaughtering and criminalising at will? Is that the sort of thing that we want to do in this country? I have seen a legal opinion from a learned counsel who says that the Bill would breach the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights, in spite of the Minister's assertion on the face of the Bill that it is compatible with the Act. Do we really need the Human Rights Act to tell us how to behave in this country? Do we have to rely on it? Whatever happened to our own standards of decency, common sense and what is right and of how to legislate for our own citizens?
The Minister would do himself, the country and the Government a great favour if he would withdraw this deeply offensive Bill this evening and agree to come back with something reasonable and proportionate after the Government's committee of inquiry has reported. If he will not do so, the country will be looking to this House to stop the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, pointed out last week:
- "the House of Commons is no longer able to discharge its duty of scrutiny".—[Official Report, 9/1/02; col. 572.]
7.45 p.m.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I declare an interest in that, with my husband, I share the keeping of sheep, goats and cattle. I hope that I can disabuse the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and her noble friend Lady Gibson about the attitudes of those in the House whose interest is in farming and the countryside and who have a direct interest. We are not out to serve our own purposes. We are concerned about what consumers think about our products. We want foot and mouth to be eradicated quickly, but we are not happy about the way in which it is being done.
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