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Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I do not think that anything that I said suggested that anybody took a different view about our duty to consumers. I hope that the noble Countess will accept that.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am pleased to hear that.
To put it mildly, the Bill is widely disliked. It follows in the wake of what will probably go down in history as an appalling and unnecessary massacre of our farm stock. History shows that the foot and mouth disease research station at Pirbright was set up in 1924 as a result of criticism of the Ministry of Agriculture's "primitive slaughter policy". Nothing much seems to have changed in the intervening period. Despite the
development of vaccines on the Continent in the 1930s and 1940s, the ministry refused to allow their use, preferring instead to slaughter thousands of animals in the major outbreaks that occurred in 1952 and 1967.From the beginning of the recent outbreak it was clear that no one had learnt any lessons from the past when they embarked on the mass slaughter of so many animals, the majority of which, it seems, were healthy. It was not the largest outbreak in the world, but it was the one in which the most animals were killed.
The Explanatory Notes tell us that the Bill supplements existing powers,
- "wherever this is necessary for disease control reasons".
- "which appear to the Minister to have been in any way exposed"
It sounds as though the Bill might prove a very convenient means by which to exercise population control. Some of us have been aware for several years that officials have been concerned that our hill and mountain sheep do not conform to EU standards and that they are surplus to requirement. There have been a lot of discussions with the National Sheep Association about how we can get rid of the hill sheep. Officials have shown a singular ignorance of the way in which the British sheep raising system works.
Many of the more recent problems that have arisen in the market place are the result of the operation of the common agricultural policy. Now is not the appropriate time to digress into those realms—no doubt the Minister will be pleased to hear that—but one cannot help but observe the wonderful opportunity that foot and mouth disease has given to those so eager to reduce the hill sheep population. Similarly, the Minister's right honourable friend, Mr Jack Cunningham, told us in 1997, when he was Minister of Agriculture, that there was a surplus of beef supply in Europe.
The wording of the Explanatory Notes, when read in conjunction with the Bill and the responses to frequently asked questions published on the DEFRA website, makes one wonder whether those who drafted it really know what they are doing. For example, Clause 1 gives the Minister powers to kill any animal whether or not it is sick, not only during an outbreak of foot and mouth disease but, by order, during any disease. The Explanatory Notes make perfectly clear the intentions that a straightforward reading of the Bill convey. The spin on the DEFRA website skates hurriedly over that fact—it merely states that the farming and wider community will benefit from quick, effective action against foot and mouth disease.
We have also had various statements put out as facts to the effect that farmers refusing to have their stock killed caused foot and mouth disease to spread. Was not the Minister just as disingenuous tonight? The facts speak for themselves. Of nearly 350 cases handled by two solicitors, only three eventually proved positive. Figures from the animal virus research institute at
Pirbright for June 2001, at the height of the outbreak, show that fewer than 10 per cent of their samples proved positive. That is only one example, but other noble Lords have furnished the Minister with more.We are governed by consent. In order for a law to be obeyed it must appear reasonable to most of those who will be expected to obey it. The implementation of the poll tax by the Tory government is an example of what happens when there is a breakdown of consent. I would venture to say that there is ample evidence that this Bill, in its entirety, is unreasonable. Others have spoken about human rights and ethical aspects, but I would strongly recommend to the Minister that he read the paper entitled "Legal and ethical issues arising from the recent foot and mouth disease outbreak", by Mr A. Richardson and published in the Veterinary Times, volume 32, number 1, of today's date.
Noble Lords who have known me for a long time will be aware of my struggle to obtain recognition for the many individuals whose health has been damaged by organophosphate chemicals. I have repeatedly been told that there is no scientific evidence that those chemicals, which are extremely toxic to all kinds of living organisms, can be toxic to humans. I was told that, in order to prove my case, I would have to provide incontrovertible scientific evidence. In this case, however, we have the Minister expecting to be given very wide-ranging powers to kill animals of any species for reasons that have no scientific basis.
I cannot begin to express my dismay at the quality of the scientific advice currently in vogue. Here I speak particularly about the advice taken by the departments responsible for human and animal health. In June 1997, shortly after this Government first came into power, I quoted the words of Sybil Marshall. She said:
- "I fell to thinking why the experts so often get it wrong. Because they are experts, they no longer ask questions. They simply take the nearest ready made answer from the shelf and use it".
It has always been my understanding that scientists should have inquiring minds. My experience with the organophosphate saga and subsequently with a number of other subjects has worried me profoundly. The "experts"—those who shoulder the enormous responsibility for giving their considered advice to Ministers—have shown an almost callous lack of concern for human and animal suffering and an extraordinary lack of curiosity. It is almost as though they have no need to do any more for they have reached the top of their tree.
Significantly, it has nearly always been the scientists who have direct contact with their subjects who have produced the most important results. The current vogue for computer modelling is leading to weekly food and health scares of an unprecedented scale. Whenever I see the word "epidemiology" my heart sinks. Epidemiology has its uses, but it must be used in conjunction with clinical studies; otherwise it is virtually useless. Why is there no virologist at Page Street?
There has been a huge waste of physical and financial resources brought about by academics, rather than veterinary surgeons or scientists, making assumptions devoid of any scientific principles in order to enable Ministers to determine the action to be taken to defeat the disease. They ignored the state of the art science for diagnosis in foot and mouth disease. Ministers failed to grasp the perfect opportunity for data gathering and yet, with no more information, they are asking for more powers to control the disease. There persists a lack of understanding of the disease process, evidenced by the destruction of flocks continuing when antibodies are found in few, if any, individuals.
The opportunity has been lost to use the state of the art methodology to study and extend our knowledge of the natural history of foot and mouth disease and, dare I say it, of the prevalence of scrapie with any other TSE that the academics would care to dream up in the vast numbers of uninfected sheep that were destroyed during the outbreak. Nevertheless, the Government are prepared to legislate without that information. Are Ministers willingly caught up in a time warp? Can they not see the torpor, arrogance and reluctance to accept that others may be able to do things better than they can that has restricted the vision of the State Veterinary Service for decades? This draconian legislation is no substitute for reliable information and credible scientific data.
Conversely, the authors of the Bill choose to assume a known science about scrapie and the genetics of spongiform encephalopathies in sheep. In fact, the science is far from clear, and the significance of any genetics in terms of transmissibility is quite unknown and purely speculative. Currently, we are being fed a weekly dose of food and health scares. Last week, there was an interesting coincidence. Professor Anderson's team's paper on the theoretical risk of BSE in sheep was published in Nature. Headlines proclaimed that:
- "Scientists estimate that up to 150,000 people could die from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease if BSE is discovered in sheep".
On the same day, the Chief Medical Officer announced that 30 tropical diseases, for which there is no treatment, are being introduced to the UK by British holidaymakers and foreign tourists. Surely, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why are the Government not proposing to prevent all those potential carriers from entering the UK, or, if they do manage to come in, to euthanise them on the basis that they may or may not be dangerous contacts? Some of the diseases mentioned by the CMO are just as nasty as CJD.
Dr Neil Ferguson was approached by Mr Jon Dobson, research director for the FMD Forum, in order to draw his attention to the effects that papers such as his have on both producers and consumers. Dr Ferguson gave the usual "the press does not understand me" response. In addition, he told Mr Dobson that he was commissioned by the Food Standards Agency,
- "to look into the risks that might be posed if BSE had entered the sheep flock, not to make judgements about the likelihood that BSE has infected sheep".
- "there remains much uncertainty in performing this type of analysis, but that one definite conclusion we could draw was that even if BSE had infected risk"—
- "the overall scale of the risk posed by this up to the current time would have been a fraction (<1%) of that posed by BSE in cattle".
So there we have it. To date, there has been no sound scientific evidence that either sheep scrapie or meat and bone meal in the rations of cattle was the cause of BSE. We have no sound scientific evidence that prions are the infectious agents. We have no sound scientific evidence that variant CJD is caused by eating beef.
We have plenty of scientific evidence that scrapie has been endemic in our sheep for at least 250 years. We have plenty of evidence that scrapie is not transmitted to humans. I ate dozens of sheep brains in my youth—they are delicious fried in black butter and served on toast. While friends and colleagues might doubt my sanity, I do not think that the brains were the cause.
There is not a shred of evidence that sheep get BSE. Dr Ferguson pleaded that,
- "it is no longer acceptable to portray the absence of evidence as evidence of absence, particularly when it may be probable that the reason we haven't found something is because we haven't really looked for it".
My goodness me, how many times have I expressed that thought in relation to organophosphates? However, in the face of the total failure by government and science to examine causation for numerous other life threatening and high-morbidity diseases in humans, that remark in these circumstances takes the biscuit.
On the basis of a mad double hypothesis, the Anderson team produced a paper which is endorsed by Professor Sir John Krebs, Fellow of the Royal Society and head of the Food Standards Agency, and Professor Robert May, Fellow of the Royal Society and Mr Blair's former chief scientist. It was May who recommended as his successor Professor David King, Fellow of the Royal Society, who in turn, on Krebs's recommendation, appointed Professor Anderson, Fellow of the Royal Society, as chief policy adviser on foot and mouth. Krebs, May and Anderson all worked together at the Oxford University zoology department, which also employs Professor Sir Brian Follett, Fellow of the Royal Society, who also just happens to have been picked by the Royal Society to chair Mr Blair's inquiry into the scientific handling of foot and mouth. Put all those connections together and it may be seen why we are never going to get an independent public inquiry into last year's foot and mouth disease.
In recent months, I have been reminded frequently of the story of the emperor's new clothes. I now recognise why it was written; and if noble Lords think about it, perhaps they will recognise why it was written.
My husband is a member of the sheep scrapie scheme. We also have goats, which do not seem to be mentioned in the Bill. However, I would be interested to know what the position is on goats, as I understand that they can contract scrapie.
I question the haste that lies behind Part 2 of the Bill, and believe that we shall be taking a huge risk if we agree to it. We do not yet know about all the interactions between genes. If, as the Bill proposes, we wipe out a whole section of the sheep population, we may well lay the sheep and ourselves open to all kinds of problems. We need to work with nature rather than against her. She has a nasty little way of getting her own back, as we have seen, but may not have recognised, in recent years.
8 p.m.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, such has been the exceptional ferocity of criticism against the Bill that I hope very much that your Lordships will forgive me if I repeat, albeit briefly, a few of the arguments so as to send a message to the farming community of just how strongly many of us in your Lordships' House share their severe misgivings. Indeed, they probably regard your Lordships' House as their last hope for sense and reason.
In my part of Devon, in the north, where my wife farms, people refer to this Bill as "DEFRA's revenge"—the Government's way of spitefully getting their own back for the repeated humiliations inflicted upon them during their brutal and incompetent efforts to deal with the foot and mouth outbreak. That was certainly the impression created by the shameful spin which the Minister responsible in another place, Elliot Morley, applied to the legislation when he said that farmers who had resisted the contiguous cull had allowed disease to spread and so prolonged the epidemic. There is not a shred of evidence to support such an allegation. In Devon, of the 150 or so farmers who successfully resisted the contiguous cull, only one subsequently had the disease in his animals and he took no other herds or flocks down with him as all of his neighbours' farms had already been slaughtered out.
As speaker after speaker has said, this is a vindictive, badly drafted and, above all, premature Bill. Why, oh why, do not the Government wait until the outcome of their inquiries, particularly the "lessons learnt" and scientific inquiries, before legislating? They have the existing powers at their disposal. Why this extraordinary rush to judgment? It is nothing but pure panic.
Compare and contrast the unseemly haste with which this Bill is being introduced with the Government's abject failure to do anything in almost a year now to close off the route by which the disease almost certainly arrived in this country last February and by which it could return at any time; namely, illegal meat imports. Why do we not take the same stringent precautions against imported disease as, for example, the Australians, the Americans and New
Zealanders? Why are such precautions not provided in the Bill—a point so strongly brought out by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford, the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and many other noble Lords?If we look at what is in the Bill, we see that the Minister is granted—I use the phrase that I believe my noble friend Lord Ferrers used—Hitlerian powers to order the slaughter of any animal anywhere which he or she "thinks" might need to be killed in the cause of controlling disease. There is no appeal. Just consider the utter wretchedness of a farmer in those circumstances. Indeed, the Bill will allow DEFRA officials to knock up a magistrate at dead of night to sign a slaughter warrant without the farmer or his representative being present, or his view being taken into account, as if they were dealing with some highly dangerous criminal in a police state. That is virtually rural dictatorship.
Government Ministers have talked about developing a "protocol" to govern how those powers would be used. But what guarantee is there that such a protocol would be heeded when it came to the crunch? We know from the experience of last spring the lengths to which government Ministers and their tame scientists will go in order to stamp out politically inconvenient disease. If they have done it once, they can do it again. If the protocol is to be the guiding light, let it be given the force of law by inclusion in the Bill. Failing that, farmers must be allowed a right of appeal before, rather than after, their animals are killed. As it stands, the clause is an affront to basic human rights.
Then there is the issue of compensation. The Government want to reduce a farmer's entitlement to 75 per cent of the value of an animal unless the farmer can prove that his biosecurity was satisfactory. Again, we know from the experience of last year that whenever DEFRA officials were unable to account for a particular outbreak, or felt that its occurrence might reflect unfavourably on them, they instantly blamed poor biosecurity on the part of the farmer, usually without the slightest justification for so doing. The clause simply provides them with an even more powerful financial incentive to blame someone else. If the provision is to survive at all, it must be turned on its head. Just as under English law a person is innocent until proven guilty, so the presumption should be that a farmer's biosecurity is adequate unless DEFRA can prove otherwise.
Of course, we need to learn the lessons of last year's tragic foot and mouth epidemic and provide a legal basis for whatever policies may need to be adopted to deal with any future outbreaks. But the time to do that will be after the various inquiries have reported and it should be done behind the most secure defences we can possibly construct against the importation of disease.
The Bill does nothing to strengthen our defences. But it will provide the Government with unfettered powers to inflict on farmers and their animals the consequences of their own Ministers' failings. As it stands, this is a disastrous piece of legislation created
by the ignorant against the innocent. We must set to it; we must oppose the Bill in its present form with all the force we can muster.8.6 p.m.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, as the 22nd speaker in the debate I could just say that I support many of the comments that have been made, many of the strong opinions that have been expressed in reference to the so-called "reform" of the Animal Health Act 1981 and those who have expressed their concern that the Government seem to be pushing ahead in indecent haste. Although the Minister is not present, I know that he is getting the extremely clear message that is being expressed.
The Minister opened the debate. On our side, the debate was led by my noble friend Lady Byford, supported by the fine speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. Nearly every speaker has mentioned the great and forceful speech of the right reverend Prelate. I could not help remembering that when I spoke at a large memorial service the other day I apologised for making a political statement from the pulpit. The right reverend Prelate made a good speech today with the freedom of the bishops to speak as would a farmer or citizen of this country.
I could simply wish my noble friend Lady Byford a happy birthday and sit down. As it is her birthday I think that it is fair to say just that. However, I must start from the beginning. The Minister spoke of the lessons that had been learnt from the epidemic. Of course, it is necessary to be prepared at all times to take action that is needed. The Minister spoke of the inadequacy of the existing powers. As the Minister returns to the Chamber I suggest to him in all modesty that the powers proposed in 1969 would have stood the test of time had they been implemented immediately this outbreak started. That might indeed have prevented its spread and, therefore, the slaughter of animals that have inevitably been slaughtered during the drastic outbreak. That, however, is, of course, always a matter of speculation.
I declare an interest as a livestock farmer and President of the National Sheep Association. I also have a few other agricultural interests. I speak from experience—I spent hours on Friday morning filling out forms to qualify for the movement of 300 lambs for slaughter and export. I suggest to the Minister that when he starts the consultation process to which he referred, he should simplify some of the movement regulations without weakening the risk of traceability. That can be done without more red tape and bureaucracy. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury made a fine point when he referred to the 21-day period and concerns about the movement of sheep.
The public consultation paper has been launched and I understand that it will go to all concerned stakeholders. It will be about how the new disease control powers in the Bill will work in practice.
I tell the Minister that I read both documents—the Bill and the consultation paper—very carefully last night. That prevented me from watching "Who wants
to be a Millionaire?". I found that there was little relationship between the two documents, but perhaps that is me being too simple. I could not determine the relationship between them. For example, the consultation paper states that the Bill will not advocate any one approach to disease control and that it will strengthen the four elements of culling, vaccination, blood testing and biosecurity. Fine; but I do not find that in the Bill, which is more specific and more direct. It states, "This is what you are going to do".The Government appear to accept that farmers and livestock owners must have confidence in the way in which the powers will be exercised and, where necessary, an opportunity for a reasonable hearing. We all say, "Hear, hear" to that. That is welcome news and I hope that it will remove some of the fears of the many who read into the Bill the draconian measures that were proposed in the original draft—they involve the powers to slaughter stock on affected farms and, presumably, on farms that are contiguous to an outbreak.
I find it extremely difficult to understand why the Government propose measures for action in the event of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease before the committees of inquiry have hardly started, especially in relation to science and the lessons learnt. Is there not a possibility of conflict? If I were a member of one of those committees, I should find it pretty awful that the Minister was coming up with proposals that could well undermine the determinations that we on the committees might come to. Does the Minister accept that there is logic in waiting for the reports before introducing further legislation? Does he also accept that if the urgency procedure is to be adopted, the important point about preventing animal disease is to stop it coming into the country? Should not that be the priority? However, there is no mention of that—or very little—in the Bill.
Will the Minister tell the House what quantity of meat is being imported into this country from countries in which foot and mouth exists or where it is endemic? Over the past two years, I know that that has continued and that it is continuing. We are sitting on a time bomb waiting for the next outbreak, but we are discussing how we should handle it rather than how we should prevent it.
What action is being taken at airports? We all know when we travel through airports that the answer is absolutely none. There is plenty of checking as we go out but no checking when people come in. In terms of taking preventive action, there should be far more vigour and commitment than is currently evident. As has already been said, Australia, New Zealand and the United States are fine examples, and their animal health record speaks for itself.
Another matter of concern, which could be a recipe for huge confusion and divisiveness, involves the geographic extent of the Bill, which will apply to England and Wales unless corresponding legislation is introduced at the same time in Scotland. That is a matter of great concern to those who live, farm and
work in the Border country. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that point. He is aware of the difficulties in those areas.All changes have to be assessed against the tests of reasonableness and practicality. I cannot accept—many noble Lords have already said this—that it is reasonable to pay compensation at less than 100 per cent of the actual value of an animal. Paying less than that is extremely unfair, particularly against the background that the onus of proof for the last 25 per cent of the value is put at the door of the producer. Many noble Lords have already said that that affects a minority, who are already under pressure and stress and in difficulty as a result of what they went through last year. That could create a lawyer's paradise, but it could also exacerbate a further breakdown in relations between farmers and DEFRA at a time when they should be improving.
It is suggested that compensation for slaughter and vaccinated stock should be put in the hands of Ministers. I ask you! It is surely not realistic to expect Ministers to know the value of stock; that is the responsibility of professional valuers.
I can but applaud other parts of the Bill, which are not related to foot and mouth disease. I refer in particular to the provisions about the creation of a sheep flock that will, in breeding terms, become resistant to all spongiform encephalopathies. That word is pronounced with a soft "c" in my part of the world, but I take note of the comments of the right reverend Prelate.
On the other proposals, persuasion, not coercion, needs to be the byword. The Bill needs many changes. I know that the Minister is well aware of the importance of consultation. If he was not previously aware of it, he certainly is now, after listening to this debate for the past five hours.
I welcome the wind of change—at least a consultative document has been produced; it will allow people to consider the proposals. However, the Bill's whole approach is misdirected and tends to apportion blame on the farming fraternity. Following the difficult year that they have faced, that is totally unfair.
The trend to reduce the scale, influence and authority of the State Veterinary Service needs to be reversed. The numbers need to return to levels that will allow them to do their job not as policemen but as part of the livestock business. Many private vets have left the large-animal practice recently but they and the state vets need to be on a par with practices in the rest of the world. I inform the Minister that the Bill should reflect all of those facts.
8.19 p.m.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I am in a minority because although I want to speak in this debate I am not a farmer. However, I am a consumer of meat and I have an interest in continuity of supply, quality, price health and diversity.
I have watched farming and the foot and mouth disease from the outside. I saw farmers protest 18 or so months ago against the low prices and the consequences of BSE, and I see that the campaign against the supermarkets is continuing. I also see the supermarkets abusing their monopoly buying power with some 80 per cent of the market, leading to lower and lower prices for farmers. Therefore, I am not surprised that the farmers are upset.
As we have heard today, for many, foot and mouth disease was the last straw. I do not believe that DEFRA—with a new name and new responsibility—has yet grasped the nettle of the conflict between the role of farmers as guardians of the countryside and their role as producers of cheap food. It has not incentivised farmers separately for those two functions.
In the context of FMD, to which I shall confine my remarks, I see the farming industry as part of the meat-producing industry. As I said, it is led by the supermarkets, which require certainty of supply from wherever they choose, be it here, the EU or the rest of the world. Like many foods, meat is subject to scares and fads, which can bring great profits and great losses. I believe that that was illustrated in a comment made by my noble friend Lord Whitty about the West Yorkshire pig producers. As I understand it, if those pigs had caught FMD, the losses would have been huge. Pig farming is a big factory operation. Therefore, we have industrialised farming with big businesses at one end and small farmers, about whom we have heard today, at the other.
As noted by many speakers, the other great change to have come about is the much longer distance over which meat is transported, whether it is dead or alive. There appears to be clear evidence that that contributed to the spread of the disease, and, of course, it includes imports. But I have also heard many farmers talk about the importance of exports. I believe that, for the export market to work, the quality of the meat and the legislation, and so on, must be preserved, even though many governments—perhaps including this one; perhaps not—use the fear of infection as an excuse to prevent the import of competing products.
Therefore, whatever the benefits, or lack of benefits, of vaccination, it is clear to me that at present the Government believe there to be little alternative to the culls until and unless scientific evidence, export demands and all supermarkets accept an alternative. I have not heard alternatives to culling suggested in the debate. I have heard only how badly the culling was done and I believe that arguments can be made in that respect. Therefore, in relation to outbreaks, it appears that, if we are to cull, time must be of the essence in order to preserve what people believe to be necessary—that is, a disease-free market. If we cull, it must be done quickly and comprehensively and must create what I call "firebreaks". Again, my noble friend the Minister illustrated that. One must have a 100 per cent firebreak in order to be effective.
We have heard about the severe problems that arose during the last crisis. Many lessons are to be learnt: the culling did not take place in time; it was not done
quickly enough; the incineration was bad; and there were severe animal welfare problems. There is also evidence that a few people put at risk a much greater number of animals—sometimes, in their view, successfully; sometimes not.I believe that it is unrealistic to expect to be able to control the movement of animals around the country in trucks. One cannot stop every truck on the motorway. Therefore, the ability to cull and to dispose quickly and humanely of animals is obviously a necessity. Although I am concerned about the lack of the possibility of a challenge to such a decision in the Bill as it stands at present, I believe that the need to do so quickly requires legislation. Today we have heard again about the human rights aspects and whether or not a criminal activity is involved.
I recall that a similar debate took place about importing illegal immigrants in trucks. We have debated that issue in your Lordships' House more than once. Many noble Lords said that the fining—or "charging", as the Government called it—of the truck drivers by £2,000 per illegal immigrant was against human rights legislation because there was no appeal as the Government had decided that it was to be a charge and not a criminal activity. The first truck driver to appeal won his case. The judge in the High Court said that such charging contravened human rights legislation. Therefore, I believe that we have work to do in your Lordships' House when considering this matter in respect of the culling of animals. We need to see exactly what lessons can be learnt and whether the Government's advice on human rights legislation is still correct.
I turn now to the subject of compensation. Personally I do not understand why obtaining 75 per cent compensation when the cull takes place and 25 per cent subject to compliance with legal disease control requirements is all that wrong. My noble friend Lord Whitty said that similar compensation in relation to pigs gave 50 per cent on cull and 50 per cent later if compliance had been demonstrated. My noble friend Lady Thornton reminded your Lordships that many of the others affected by the disease—the businesses, the countryside hotels, tourism and so on—received nothing. Those who it is demonstrated have not complied might be encouraged to adopt a more compliant disease control requirement. Again, the vast majority have no fear of not receiving the full payment.
Farmers have suffered. As I said, much of the FMD process was inept, and I hope that lessons have been learnt. But farmers have also suffered from the action of supermarkets, from the lack of exports and from cheap imports. It is clear that improved import controls and checks are necessary. However, as was said by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, as with so-called "illegal immigrants" or the new type of flu or worse diseases affecting humans, and with international transport and trade developed as it is now, I do not believe that anyone can say that, whatever the checks, foot and mouth or any other disease will not enter the country. There is always a
chance of that happening. Therefore, I believe that we must be prepared. No security can keep everything out.I believe that the provisions as described in the Bill are a proper precaution with which to start the process of learning from the last outbreak. I believe that we have more to learn, but I am persuaded that such provisions would help in that regard. New infections could enter the country at any time. If they did, culling appears to remain the only solution. Then responsible farmers would surely welcome more certainty that their neighbours were not intentionally or unintentionally spreading the disease and putting their own flocks at risk.
8.27 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: My Lords, the muddle between myself and the Government Whips' Office, which led to my not being included in the List of Speakers but having to speak in the gap, has robbed noble Lords of a trenchant, brilliant and very important speech. But it has not robbed noble Lords of it for long because, on behalf of myself and the Green Party, I shall be tabling amendments in Committee and supporting amendments tabled by others, and I shall be able to produce all the gems then.
In my 35 years' experience in this House, emergency Bills are almost always disastrous, and this one is no exception. But the subjects of such Bills are rarely great emergencies, as is the case in relation to this one, as the noble Lord, Lord Kimball, said. They do harm, but not that much harm, and they are more acceptable when a major emergency arises. The noble Lord, Lord Kimball, talked about the conscription of horses in 1939. I remember the conscription of horses at that time, as will one or two other noble Lords. The Bill that implemented such a measure was badly drafted and was not of much use. The noble Lord said that at least it related to a real emergency. But which noble Lord remembers the great cavalry charges of the last war in which the horses took part and which led to the defeat of the Germans and the Japanese?
These Bills, of which we have had a number over a period of time, almost invariably in their haste trample civil rights into the ground. As has been proved in speech after speech in this debate, this one is no exception. When the Minister says that in his view the provisions of the Animal Health Bill are compatible with convention rights, one can say only that either his view is wrong or that convention rights are useless and should not ever have been embarked upon.
This is a nasty Bill in which, at one stage or another, a great many things need to be put right. It would be best for the whole Bill to go out of the window. However, if that cannot be done, and if we cannot achieve a delay for reports so that we can legislate firmly and competently, we must summon all our forces and amend the Bill drastically, root and branch.
8.30 p.m.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, this has been a long and stimulating debate. One of the problems of winding up
is that one has nothing left to say about sheep that has not been said at least 10 times previously, often by people who are much more knowledgeable that oneself. Perhaps I should declare an interest. I am somewhat "freaky" in your Lordships' House. I do not own any sheep and have never done so. The closest encounters I have had with them were on a couple of occasions when involved in rescuing them from a rock ledge when they were crag-fast. One learns a lot about sheep when doing that.It may be that the Government are tempted to say that they have had a bit of a battering in this Second Reading—I do not think they had one in the Commons—but that the House of Lords is not representative of the country and that Members of this House with interests in and connections with farming are not representative of farmers in this country. I would say to the Government, "Come with me and talk to Pennine sheep farmers or Lake District shepherds". One will find that they are just as eloquent in their thoughts on the Bill, the only difference being that they would be a great deal ruder than it has been possible for Members of your Lordships' House to have been today. The sentiments expressed from all sides of the House and from most speakers reflect the thoughts of the livestock farmers in this country, particularly in the uplands and in places which were badly hit by foot and mouth.
At the beginning of the debate my noble friend set out comprehensively the views on the Bill from these Benches. She set out what should happen to the Bill and the attitude we shall take to many of its provisions should it reach Committee stage. In many ways, her views were paralleled by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, from the Opposition Front Bench. The range and quality of speeches that we have heard today has been exceptional. On the occasions when the right reverend Prelate was out of the Chamber, his ears must have been burning. The tributes to his contribution have been fulsome. There were many such contributions. I refer to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, the noble Countess, Lady Mar, the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and many others. In particular, I remember the speech at the beginning of the debate by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. He set out the case against the Bill with a clarity unmatched by many of the other speakers.
If the Government are not prepared to listen, and the Minister is not prepared to go away and say, "What can be done to find a consensus even at this stage on these important matters?" that will not just make life difficult for the Government—it will do so, and make much work in this House—it will be bad for the countryside and the livestock farming community. That is important; what it does to us is less important.
I should like to put the Bill into context. I refer not to the state of livestock farming in this country, which has been battered in many places in the past year, but to the state of mind of sheep farmers, cattle farmers and livestock farmers generally, particularly where foot and mouth disease has hit, or where it has come
close to hitting. It came within five miles of the village where I live. As many noble Lords have said, the trauma experienced in the places in which it hit had to be witnessed to be believed.The traumatic effect on families, farmers and communities has been desperate. I refer not just to the mass slaughter and its effects; in many cases the farms which were not hit by foot and mouth or were not taken out by it were in a worse situation than those that were because of the acute animal welfare problems and acute financial problems suffered by many such small businesses. In our part of the world many farms are, indeed, small businesses. Someone referred to bureaucratic bungling and mismanagement by DEFRA and MAFF. The Minister referred to "poor organisation". That is an interesting admission by him that all has not gone well in the foot and mouth outbreak and that that was not all down to bad, careless or malicious farmers. "Poor organisation" is the biggest euphemism I have heard in this House for a long time. In many cases, it was a shambles.
Those farmers are now faced with a wholly uncertain future. In many cases that uncertainty is not over whether to restock or rebuild their businesses and their economic futures. Every time they open a farming newspaper or listen to a farming programme they are being told by a Government Minister that farming must change; that nothing can be the same again; that subsidies will be abolished and in future things will have to be different. That may be true. In many cases that may be inevitable. But the way in which it is done is seen as the farmers being lectured to from on high by politicians, when the people on the ground are struggling with their problems.
The future of farming in this country is not clear. The Government may set up this study, that commission or that working party. Sooner or later decisions must be made. Nowadays, everyone talks of partnerships. However, such decisions must be made in a genuine partnership with farmers and the farming community. If they are not, and there continues to be a series of lectures by the Secretary of State and other politicians, we shall not get anywhere. Unfortunately, whatever the rights and wrongs of the Bill—my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, both said that we believe this to be a bad Bill—it is seen by livestock farmers as part of a process. It is seen as, "The Government know best. You will do what the Government tell you. If you do not like it, and try to struggle against it, we will pass new laws to make it impossible for you to do so". That is the context in which the Bill is seen. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, called the Bill the "Animal Death Bill". The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, called it the "Animal Extermination Bill". Those are strong words. However, they are mild compared to what one would be told if one spoke to my neighbours who keep sheep on the Pennines.
For many noble Lords an interesting aspect of the debate is that it is not just about farming or how to cope with a particular disease; nor, indeed, is it about every possible disease in farming. Other vital issues are involved, which are issues of human rights and civil
liberties. Some of us are told by leading members of the Government that we are airy-fairy civil libertarians. That is often said in the context of the rights of prisoners, of those accused of offences, asylum seekers and so forth. However, just because people are farmers and keep sheep does not mean that they do not have the same civil liberties and the same human rights as those in the more obviously disadvantaged sections of the community. Essentially, human rights are indivisible. If we want human rights for one group of people, we have to have them for other groups of people. Whether or not DEFRA and the Minister like it, that includes farmers.Some of the Bill's proposals are outrageous. The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, talked about the requirement regarding anyone who happens to be on the farm at the time a visit is made. Goodness knows how far this provision extends. It may extend to a rambler walking across a footpath or someone just visiting for Sunday tea. There is the possibility of his being dragooned into assisting with whatever the man from the ministry wants him to do.
The right reverend Prelate talked eloquently about the need to reverse the burden of proof in relation to biosecurity issues. Therefore, people do not start off under the assumption that they are guilty and have to prove their innocence. A whole series of other issues have arisen.
The question of Scotland has been raised. We, on these Benches are quite clear about the position in Scotland because the Minister for Environment and Rural Development in Scotland is a Liberal Democrat—Ross Finnie. When the Scottish Parliament discussed the matter in November, as the noble Earl, Lord Peel, said, Ross Finnie stood up and said, yes, he thought that there would have to be new legislation, but, yes, they were going to wait until the three English inquiries and the one Scottish inquiry reported before they decided what legislation was needed. That is a sensible way to go about the matter. This is an occasion when matching what happens in England with what happens in Scotland can sensibly be done by the Minister deferring the Bill until that information is known.
There has been some technical discussion, much of which most of us will never understand, about the scrapie provisions and Part 2 of the Bill which refers to TSE in sheep. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, spoke eloquently about that matter.
There is a real concern about the effect that the provisions will have on rare and traditional breeds and on the diversity of the gene stock within this country. In Committee the Government and the Minister will have to tackle that matter head on and provide satisfactory answers. The concept of trying to get rid of scrapie is obviously desirable but the question is how it is done and what knock-on effects there may be and its effects on the rare and traditional breeds. Answers must be produced.
The crunch of this whole argument is that this Bill is being brought forward totally out of context with how a future outbreak of FMD will be dealt with. Many
people, including Ministers, go around saying, "It must never happen like this again. We must never close the countryside down like this again. The knock-on effects on the countryside service industries and particularly the tourist industry must never be allowed to happen again". Certainly, if they happen again in the near future it would be absolutely disastrous.The noble Viscount asked whether the public would allow the funeral pyres and the mass slaughter and all the rest to happen again. I agree with him; I do not think that they would. But the Government do not have a strategy. They do not have one because the whole process of inquiries and information finding is not far enough along the line. Yet, we are told that we must legislate now on one narrow section of it. It is premature; there was no proper consultation; the inquiries have not had time to come up with their proposals; and we have no clear idea whatever of what the strategy for a future outbreak will be. It is not proportionate. It narrowly focuses on livestock farmers as though their sins and crimes are at the heart of the problem. I ask: if this new legislation had been in place last year, what real difference would it have made to the course of the outbreak? The answer is: not very much at all. It is one-sided, as the right reverend Prelate said; it is draconian; and if it comes to Committee, it will get a considerable degree of sceptical scrutiny.
If the Government are sensible, they will look and say, "Do we really want compromise or confrontation in the countryside and in the farming community?" If they want compromise and consensus, they will defer the Committee stage until the inquiries have reported. They will start to build bridges with the people who the Government will call their stakeholders in the countryside—although I would never use such a Blairite word—and they will say, "Let's draw back a bit. Let's talk to people. Let's try and build bridges. Let's get away from the present situation in which farming and the farming community generally believe that the present government do not have any interest in their future and do not care about them".
There is a widespread view that the Bill is just part and parcel, as some noble Lords have said, of getting rid of the sheep from the uplands in this country. I do not say that that is the case. There is time for the Government to draw back and to start building bridges and partnerships. But if they rush ahead with the Bill now, they will not just ferment a confrontation in this House but they will cause a great deal of damage in the countryside.
8.46 p.m.
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, like what some may regard as too many of your Lordships, I declare an interest in managing a herd of cattle and a flock of sheep. In the last months I have been through all the permutations and combinations of forms, permits, licences and papers that farmers are getting used to.
After all that has been said, there is no need for me to go back over what, with all the wisdom of hindsight, appears to have been lacking in the operation to clear
up foot and mouth. We wait anxiously to see the reports that should emanate from the many inquiries that are being carried on at the moment. But considering all the evidence of how out of touch with the situation those with responsibilities, at even the most basic levels, appear to have been when the outbreak started, one can see why the Farmers' Weekly and its members will not be satisfied with anything less than a full public inquiry.On Friday, the Minister kindly sent me an advance copy of the consultation document which lays out the proposal on the operation of powers contained in the Bill. I had the weekend to look at it. This, he hopes, will allay a great many of the fears and horrors which most noble Lords who have spoken today have expressed after reading the Bill.
I ask the Minister: if this document is so vital for the understanding of the Government's intention, what does this tell us about their attitude to another place? As the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, stated, the Bill has been through all its stages there—being both timetabled and subject to no revision—without a chance for those at the other end to examine the method by which the Bill would be implemented. One wonders whether that is a further example of the Government's wish to downsize the other place.
My noble friend Lady Byford wanted to call this the "Animal Death" Bill. I know that my noble friend Lord Plumb had some problems in bringing the two documents together. In putting these two documents together one can see that once again we are in the Government's rather favoured territory of the skeleton Bill.
The major concern of anyone who is liable to be covered by this legislation lies in the way that it will be carried out. There in the consultation document is the Government's plan, without any guarantee that it is the last word on the matter. Only a statement from the Government that they are,
- "committed to implementing the provisions openly and transparently, in the light of an effective dialogue with stakeholders".
I am glad to see that the first reason given for the consultation is that tackling FMD must be what the Government express as a "partnership exercise"; and the Ministry expects
- "to work with those affected to increase understanding of their purpose and application".
I hope that that constitutes a new understanding, as that does not appear to have been the approach taken at the start of the present crisis. The cries of farmers and farmers' unions asking for more urgent action were at first met with denial and treated with disbelief. The Government then began to abandon persuasion as their approach by accusing farmers of illegal
practices. I am not talking of the issue of taking the Ministry to court but, apparently, just because a number of markets had taken place while the Government were trying to decide what to do and because farmers had been carrying out trading individually between buyer and seller in the time-honoured fashion in which I expect that most business is done today.To my way of thinking, that accusation could stick only if it were found that farmers' personal movement records, when inspected, were not up to date. The fact that the authorities could not trace what was going on is an entirely separate issue. Perhaps that should be brought to the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Haskins, who graced our debate at least during the speeches of six speakers, but who is no longer in his place.
On the art of persuasion, I was more than intrigued in December to be invited to one of the series of "witness seminars" being held by the Wellcome Institute on the history of medicine in the 20th century. The witnesses were those who took part in the eradication of the last foot and mouth outbreak in 1967. They ranged from senior government officials of the time down to those who were then just starting on their veterinary career. They had a lot to say about how the whole episode had been handled on a much more local basis.
Towards the end, as questions were being asked, I asked if they had received a lot of objections to the cull at that time, to which the answer was yes. So I then asked how many cases had gone to court, and the answer was practically none. They explained that that was because in a difficult case they would enlist the local policeman, who was well known to the farmer but was also at that time the official livestock inspector. He was perfectly pleased to have a reason to visit the farm in his official capacity, and was also well placed to explain the situation to the farmer and get his co-operation.
My noble friend Lord Plumb talked about the need for persuasion and something to be drawn from the different approach of the Scottish Ministers and the situation in which the Government find themselves down here. Scottish Ministers do not appear to be in such a rush to legislate, because throughout the outbreak the community showed greater solidarity and persuasion seemed to have a greater effect.
We are certainly now a different generation of farmers. Farming is now all about training and qualifications as well as practical experience. We now have the Government pressing all farmers to become computer literate. The Government may not have liked the relationship that at one time existed between MAFF and the farmers, but an attitude of confrontation is likely to prove very damaging to both parties. Surely, the situation calls for an individual if not just a higher level of communication from the Government if they want to persuade farmers to follow their proposed lead. My noble friend Lord Ferrers spoke of the similarity with Communist or Hitlerite regimes. Simply to resort to the old jackboot approach belongs to the last century.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, that it is an exaggeration to say that the Bill will affect goldfish. However, perhaps the Minister will clarify whether the mention of "animals" in the Bill is purely that defined in the 1981 Act. Two diseases listed in the Bill—African horse sickness and vesicular stomatitis—affect horses and as such will affect pets.
The noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, spoke out strongly—as have many other noble Lords—on the powers of entry that the Government seek both for slaughter and vaccination. On a slightly smaller issue, I should like to ask the Minister about the biosecurity inspections included in the Bill. The question arises from Schedule 3A. 1 understand that paragraph 2 applies only to premises that have been designated an infected place. The Minister is required to carry out a disease risk assessment only if paragraph 2 applies. But under paragraph 3(7), the inspector is expected to carry out inspections up to 21 days before that event is likely to happen. Can the Minister give the House an assurance that any inspections that take place before the designation of an infected place will only be on the periphery of the holding or with the full assent of the owner?
I want to deal with the question of biosecurity. A farmer's priority must be to protect the health of his animals. The compensation that the Government offer is, at most, only for the value of the animal on the day of slaughter. There is no compensation for loss of production or income, let alone the continuity of a breeding programme in the case of those with pedigree or dairy herds. From the farmer's point of view, the danger of infection comes at three levels. The first level is those who have already been involved in the eradication of the disease. That includes most veterinarians. The second level is other farmers and farm workers from other holdings, because it is not possible to tell where the disease will next break out. The final level is people and livestock straying across his land, for a similar reason.
Given the powers that the Government seek for entry to premises, there must be an undertaking that there will be no attempt to enter premises unless that is genuinely required as the next immediate part of the eradication process. The broad powers in the Bill seem to go well beyond that. Even a penalty of 25 per cent will not persuade farmers that people who appear unnecessary to them should enter their premises. Some sort of altercation is likely to ensue, even before anyone has attempted to involve a magistrate. One even wonders what chance there is for farmers or others with livestock to supervise the disinfection process of those about to enter their grounds.
The implications of the Bill will have to be readily understood by everyone involved with animals. It used to be said that instructions had to be clear enough for a man running for a bus. In this case, it might be more appropriate to say "A man who has to calve a cow in 10 minutes". That is where the approach of the Government in offering 75 per cent compensation in the first instance is at fault—the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford raised that point. One must ask whether they have learned nothing since the BSE crisis.
At that time, the offer was for only 50 per cent compensation, but that meant that a great deal of infection was hidden at the start of the outbreak and never recorded. The object, especially with this disease, is to get farmers to report when they have the least suspicion that their animals are infected, not for them to wait to see whether true symptoms develop because they know that they will then be in a kind of lottery as to whether they will receive the remaining 25 per cent. Penalties for lack of compliance can be thought about and included afterwards.Around the House, we have seen something of the passion that the Bill arouses. I should like to echo the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu. The Bill contains powers too frightening to entrust to an organisation that has to such a large extent lost the confidence of the people.
8.58 p.m.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it is not every day that I am accused of being Hitler, Stalin and Mugabe in rapid succession. My shoulders are broad, but after some of the things that have been said today I hope that during the Bill's subsequent stages your Lordships revert to your normal sense of proportion and balance. In particular, I resent the implication that the staff of MAFF, DEFRA and veterinarians have engaged in jack-bootery. There have clearly been insensitivities, mistakes and organisational failures; I accept all that. But it is unfair to describe the staff of the department and the veterinary service in those terms, when they have struggled for months to get on top of the disease and worked incredible hours in fraught situations. Whatever your Lordships think of Ministers, I hoped that Members would not talk of the staff in that way.
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