| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, my remarks were not in any way directed at what the staff at MAFF have done. I was merely referring to what they might be asked to do if the powers included in the Bill become law.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I shall come to that. There are deep concerns about this matter. I am prepared to be reasonable, to consider amendments and to consider the relationship between what is proposed in the draft protocol and representations from the farming organisations and others. However, as the Minister responsible, among others, for the exclusion of the disease from these shores, I need the Bill, I need the principles in it and I need them as rapidly as possible.
I am prepared to accept that much of the comment that has been made this afternoon reflects the results of a great trauma in our countryside and the degree of distrust or suspicion towards the authorities that has developed in many parts of the farming community. That distrust has, in some circles, developed into a degree of paranoia and denial that does not allow us to approach the matter sensibly and logically.
Certainly, the Government made mistakes, but it is foolish to deny that some of the responsibility for the spread of the disease rests with farming practices, with the farmers themselves and with their trading patterns. It may be a minority—as regards biosecurity lapses, it is a distinct minority—but if we do not address that problem, we will not prevent any further incursion of the disease from spreading in the disastrous and catastrophic way in which it spread in this instance.
It is also important to recognise that some of the comments made this afternoon do not reflect the position of the farming organisations. Certainly, those organisations have problems with parts of the Bill, but the vast majority of farming organisations support the scrapie provisions in the Bill, subject to one or two queries. It was clear from the briefings that were provided that it was not the principles in the first part of the Bill that were being queried, but some of the safeguards and other aspects. In many ways, there has been distortion of the considered views of the farming community and of what it would think, were we to have to use the powers in the Bill.
There are one or two other contextual things that I should say. As noble Lords have rightly pointed out, the Bill is more or less in the form of an amendment to the 1981 Act. Aspects of the Bill about which queries were raised today will not, when set in the context of the 1981 Act, have the draconian implications that have been suggested. It is also important that the Bill be considered in parallel with the protocol, to which the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, referred at some length, and that the provisions and implications of the Bill should not be at odds with the tone and implications of the protocol. We intend to bring them together. It is quite rare, at this stage of a Bill's passage, for a draft consultation paper on the implementation of a Bill to have been produced. The House must know the Government's intentions in that regard, and if there are changes to the Bill that are needed, we must put them forward.
The key issue, to which the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, relates, is timing. In that regard, I have little sympathy with the sentiments expressed in most contributions this afternoon. I must clear up one point. We have been accused of rushing the Bill through Parliament and rushing consideration of it in the House of Commons. The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, made that point just now. I must say that the Opposition in the House of Commons were offered eight sessions and took only six. When there was a discussion on programming, there were no representations from the Opposition parties and, indeed, it lasted only one minute. It is not the Government's fault if the House of Commons rejected the offer of greater consideration. In any case, it is for your Lordships to consider the Bill now, and I shall abide by the normal provisions.
On the bigger issue of why the Bill has been introduced now, I have a clear answer that, I thought, I had spelt out in the introduction. The reason is the danger that the disease will recur—or it might still be
present—and it or another disease could come into the country before Parliament has had time to consider legislation or other measures arising from the inquiry. Nobody wants it to happen again, but if we do not adopt the lessons that we have already learnt, or if the House forces the Government not to adopt the necessary measures, we leave ourselves open to the recurrence of the disease. It need not be a big spread. It could be one case in one part of the country, but the issue of whether we should engage in a contiguous cull would still arise. Failure to act will lead to further spread.Some of the comments made have been inconsistent. Noble Lords press me to act instantaneously on some of the other lessons. They ask us to accept that we should stop movement instantaneously, once a disease is spotted. I have sympathy with that view, and I believe that that will be part of a future regime. They ask us to act on imports immediately, before we know the outcome of the inquiries. Noble Lords are right to do so. If we learn the lessons, we should act on them. That is precisely what we are doing now.
If the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, presses her amendment, or if, at a later stage, we delay the Bill—as the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, and others threatened to do—until after the inquiries have reported, what do we do in the coming months when it is clear that another outbreak of the disease could lead us down the same road? A great responsibility rests on the House, in considering that question. I have not heard an answer in any of today's contributions.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way. I take his point, as I am sure do other noble Lords. If such emergencies recur, is there no recourse for the Government to have emergency legislation to cover the situation, rather than rush the Bill through leaving us in the same position? I do not understand why that would not be possible. Why must we pass the whole Bill about which difficulty has been expressed today?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, we went through some of the issues in connection with the terrorism legislation. The fact of the matter is that if the disease recurred we would have to take instant action on the ground. We are talking about taking action within 24 and 48 hours. With great respect to the parliamentary procedure, we would not have certainty of the availability of those measures and the disease could slip through and engage in the same degree of spread that happened last year.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, can the Minister explain why he did not take these powers on an emergency basis at the height of the outbreak?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, if the noble Earl had been present at the beginning of today's debate—admittedly it was a long time ago—he would have heard me say that for much of the time Ministers were convinced that their objectives could be achieved and
the spread of the disease contained under the powers of the existing legislation and the emergency provisions relating to it. It was only after the experience of the Thirsk outbreak, to which I may return if time permits, that we concluded that there were gaps within those powers. That led to us to bring forward the Bill today.Some consider the Bill a knee-jerk reaction. That was the first of the seven criticisms of the Government clearly enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. It is not a knee-jerk reaction. We originally decided not to go down this road. Only the process of events persuaded us that we needed to do so and that we needed to do so in anticipation of another problem. We have considered most carefully whether we need these powers and with great reluctance, as my right honourable colleague Margaret Beckett indicated in the other place, we have come to the conclusion that we do.
The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, in his seven points mentioned one with which I agree; that this is only a partial solution. Of course it is; it is the lessons we know already. However, it is to be hoped that the rest of the solution will emerge from the inquiries and the new considerations. At that point we can give effect both operationally and legislatively if necessary to the rest of the lessons learnt.
However, the time-scale is not immediate. At the earliest the inquiries will be completed in the late summer. We would not have a Bill ready at the beginning of the next Session and it would therefore have to be introduced during it, at the earliest in the middle or end of next year. I repeat the question: what shall we do in the next 18 months if another instance of the disease arises?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He has understandably admitted that the initial reaction to the events was not right and that therefore the Government want to be able to take different action in future. Why, therefore, did the Government decide not to have a full inquiry to ascertain what was wrong before deciding how best to put it right?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I was hoping that I would not have to go into the ding-dong about a public inquiry yet again in this House because we have been over the ground many times. I reiterate my belief that the form of inquiry we have set up will give us an answer earlier. A full public inquiry would not give the answer by the end of the summer; we would be looking at a much longer time-scale. Whatever are the other arguments for or against a public inquiry, in this context it would be downright counterproductive.
The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, went on to say that the response was unco-ordinated but his only example seemed to be that we were not co-ordinated with Scotland. I know that most noble Lords who spoke did not agree with devolution, but it is in the nature of devolution that we take different decisions and in different time-scales in the devolved administrations. We have, however, kept in close touch with the
Scottish authorities in this period. If an emergency arises, perhaps they have more flexibility over their legislative timetable than we do. That partly affects the situation. Furthermore, the outbreak and devastation in Scotland was much less than in England and there was therefore less pressure in avoiding a similar outcome. It is a consequence of devolution, whether your Lordships like it or not.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |