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Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I agree with the Minister about the four-fifths majority establishing the clear risk. That is what we are worried about. But it is a clear risk of a "serious" breach. There is nothing about a "serious or persistent" breach; it is a single serious breach. We should get that straight.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the wording in the previous treaty referred to "serious and persistent". I agree that this is about a "serious" breach. However, I reiterate, a four-fifths hurdle is quite considerable and there is no change at all in unanimity minus one when establishing the breach itself.
The Government believe very strongly that breaches of human rights cannot and should not be tolerated in the EU. The clause gives the strongest possible message not only to member states but to applicant member states and the outside world that we mean what we say on this issue.
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, raised the question of Italy, an issue picked up by other noble Lords. There is no suggestion that human rights are being breached in Italy. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, went on to say that this was perhaps a question of left and right in politics. If that is a serious view held by some noble Lords, I am not sure that we have clearly understood what the article is about. The fact is that this has nothing to do with the political nature of any governmentwhether of the left or rightor with the subject matter under discussion, whether it be the euro, fiscal rectitude or whatever. This is about fundamental human rights.
The noble Lord, Lord Peston, was worried about what would happen where there was a change in the nature of the government of a country after that country had acceded to the European Union and whether that might trigger any proceedings under this article. It would if the new government offended, and was seen to offend, against human rights. It is not a question of the politics of the government but of what the government do in relation to human rights.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, when we discussed Austria two years ago, my understanding was that a political decision was taken because a government-sharing party had been elected of which the member states did not approve because it was too right wing. That is the reason why Mr Haider was so harshly treated by his fellow Europeans, some of whom went around wearing anti-Haider buttons at meetings and so on.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, it is one thing to criticise a government one does not like; it is a quite different thing to move towards anything resembling a suspension of that government and that country from the EU. I respectfully suggest to the noble Lord that whatever happened two years ago in relation to Austria is not an issue for us here. What is in issue here is what would trigger a suspension. A suspension would be triggered not because of the political colour of a government and whether it was considered to be left or right, but only if such a government compromised fundamental human rights. That might be equally true of a government of the extreme left or a government of the extreme right. The politics are not at issue. What is at issue is the challenge to human rightsand that could happen to a government of any political colour.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked who decides whether there is such a breach. Article 7.2 sets out the procedure for establishing breaches of fundamental human rights by member states. This does refer to,
The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, helpfully reminded us that Article 6.1 states:
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, may I respectfully suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that I have twice explicitly answered his exact point? Nothing will impede a country from criticising another country if that is what it wishes to do. The question at issue is whether such criticisms automatically put us on an inexorable, slippery slope to suspension through the treaty. The answer is no, it does not. Criticism of a government because you do not like some of their policies is a very different issue from proceeding to suspending a government from the European Union because of a fundamental breach of human rights. I cannot be more explicit. I am convinced of this and other noble Lords may be convinced of it, but I am afraid that the words do not exist in the English language to convince some noble Lords on that point.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, as happens often, although not invariably, the Minister has given the House some thoughts which I find illuminating and, to some extent, reassuring. Perhaps I may be permitted, under our rules, to comment briefly on one or two points which have arisen.
The noble Lord, Lord Peston, shrewdly and characteristically, raised the question of the need for rules. I should say, as perhaps a not entirely valid but slightly valid counter argument, that if you have too many rules and mechanisms for deciding who you chuck out of the club, you may find that when the situation arises the mechanisms do not fit the situation. A classic example of that at the moment is the Commonwealth and Zimbabwe. If there were not such a rigid rule about who should be excluded from the Commonwealth, I have no doubt that we would have chucked out Zimbabwe long ago. But rules can be too tough as well as too loose.
The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has vast experience in these matters. He refers to the Council of Europe. Contrary to my noble friend Lord Marlesford, I think that it is more than a talking shop; it has been a fine citadel and influence for democratic rights and freedoms throughout Europe. But the more strongly one states that the more the question cries out to be asked: why on earth do we need to duplicate it yet again and create yet another institution? The treaty not only repeats that the body is embedded in these principlesthat is fair enoughbut it is then given powers not merely to criticise but, under certain circumstances and with safeguards, to take actions against those it has criticised.
I sometimes wonder whether in the minds of some people there is any end to the need to create new institutions and new powers to tell us how to run our affairs and discipline us if we do not. One can go too
far on that front. Perhaps we are almost going too far in this case. That is why I believe that it is a legitimate matter for your Lordships to debate again.I do not disguise that the amendment was moved in a spirit of inquiry and seeking assurance rather than a clash of will. I do not know whether the discussion has made the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, happy. He is sometimes hard to please as a number of people have found out. He is right when he says that it is a critical issue. However, even more critical issues for discussion on Report lie ahead. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Howell of Guildford moved Amendment No. 2:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving the amendment, I shall address some of the amendments grouped with it. They involve the development of a common defence policy and the moving forward of what have been called European security and defence policy issues.
As in the general European context, a great deal has happened since we last discussed defence and security matters in Committee. It is right to take that into account in seeking to explain concerns about the Bill and to press amendments. However, neither a European security and defence policy nor a rapid reaction force has yet come into being. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said at the Dispatch Box only a few days ago, there is no RRF. Indeed, if reports in the newspapers are right, even the capabilities to make the RRF a reality have not been fully pledged and a third of them do not exist.
It is true that other aspects exist. The treaty adds the words "and security" to the title of the political committee. There is a military staff. I do not know whether the numbers are in the tens or hundreds; I believe that they are quite high. They have a new building but no troops. We have the old pattern of the ships and admirals: the fewer the ships the more admirals. In this case, that is carried to extreme. We have no RRF but we have a military planning staff, with papers and undertakings flying around and no doubt planning being undertaken.
In Committee, the noble Baroness said:
Our worries are ongoing and are further triggered by what is involved in the treaty and the Bill. Those worries are reinforced by what has happened since we discussed these matters and the saga of events leading up to the mobilising of the counter-terrorist campaign following the horrors of September 11th. At that point the presidency of the European Union wanted the ESDP, and perhaps the RRF, to come into being. The plea was that the RRF should become operational and get ready to go to Afghanistan. It was soon clear that that was a hopeless endeavour and a fantasy: that no such aim could be achieved. Nevertheless, it demonstrates the degree of confusion about whether and how the body will go forward. In parenthesis, I hope that noble Lords will forgive my slightly croaky voice. As have another 11 million people, I have had the standard cold which does not improve one's oratory.
We have had the remarkable mobilising of the grand coalition and the remarkable activities of the Prime Minister, Mr Blair. He moved around the world at great speed and gave some significant dinner parties to organise these events and give practicality to the security and defence aspects. Dinner parties are tremendous fun to give but they are dangerous. The people you do not ask are those who become a little concerned and sometimes hostile. That occurred with regard to the Prime Minister's dinner parties. Those who had not been invited became extremely critical. They asked why they were not involved in the defence and security arrangements being organised and in the alliances and coalitions being mobilised with such energy by our American friends, and the Prime Minister in London.
It demonstratesit is hardly a lesson the Government need because they recognised that reality as they set out on their tasksthat in dealing with defence and security matters, whether in the European theatre or in the wider global context, the need is for what Mr Michael Ancram called in another place a layered response to the different aspects of a new security situation which may be full of complexities, as Afghanistan has proved to be, which require different arrangements. Heavy and arthritic institutions and elaborate systems and pyramids of organisation cannot deliver those at speed. The doctrine and philosophy lying behind the yearning for the autonomous army, as the French called it, or the European security and defence capability begin to look tattered.
The Times cannot necessarily be condemned as a newspaper always criticising European matters. However, on 3rd December it wrote a devastating editorial stating,
Yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, fairly justifiably asked this side of the House if it wanted a better disposition of defence and to avoid overstretch, where we would cut out capabilities. My small contributionit would not make much difference in terms of hardwareis that, just for a start, we should spend less time in "senseless mortgaging" of our capabilities.
Perhaps we should let this whole RRF business fall back into the context (into which it will fall back in the end anyway) that its contribution to security and defence will be marginal and that it will detract to a considerable degree from the European security and defence which is necessary, which must be backed by greatly increased defence budgets throughout Europe and which should be closely integrated with NATO at all points, as the Americans have always argued, and as we on this side of the House have always argued. That would be much the best way forward.
If, in proposing this amendment, we can bring to the attention of the House the view of those of us who want a strong European defence, and a strong European support pillar of NATO, that some of these efforts and treaty intentions are a diversion from the main taskwhich is a very important onethe amendment will have served its purpose. I beg to move.
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